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Carnivore and Bile Acid Malabsorption
For sure, everyone's experiences are valid, and the sharing of those experiences is the most useful part of these forums.
I just know from being a research scientist that you can't do anything useful with imprecise input data, so I keep repeating the importance of thinking and writing with clarity and precision about people's experiences. People say, "yeah, but I'm not a scientist", like that's an excuse for not speaking clearly and precisely, without realizing that not striving to speak clearly and precisely is hindering their own ability to make headway because they ARE attempting to use the scientific method. Everybody is attempting to use the scientific method on a daily basis, just not explicitly. If they can acknowledge that is what is going on, then they might see motivation to hone that skill because it would lead to more consistently useful outcomes for them, and for anybody gathering data from them to do a larger population analysis.
At its most basic, the scientific method is simply:
(1) observation,
(2) conceiving of a possible pattern (i.e. model) within a series of observations,
(3) making predictions based on that model,
(4) testing those predictions by making more observations,
(5) confirming or rejecting the applicability of the model, and
(6) repeating steps 1-5 to refine the model or create a new one.
This is essentially what every person does every day of their lives without thinking about it explicitly...but it you do think about it explicitly and try to understand how to make the process work better, it becomes infinitely more useful to you and everybody listening to you.
Everybody is a scientist. Everybody should want to become a better scientist for their own good, and for the good of society. You don't have to have a degree to think scientifically, you just need the will to learn how to do it with more focus and intention.
Would you mind sharing your carnivore story? Or, if you already have somewhere else on here, I can go dig for it.
How long? How strict? What were you eating? Any organs or dairy? What went wrong for you on it? What do you think is wrong with the idea / why do you think it didn't work for you?
I think it was the zerocarb Reddit where I tried to post a question about bile acid diarrhea and Vitamin A toxicity when I first went on a low vA carnivore diet, and the moderators wouldn't even let me post the damn question! Even hinting that liver could be harmful in certain circumstances was blasphemy...not all people on carnivore are dogmatic, but there certainly do appear to be some dogmatic groups out there.
I did strict carnivore for about 2 months. The first month was brilliant, I was beginning to be alleviated of all my illnesses. Into the second month though I began to feel very unwell and jaundice in a way that is difficult to describe.
After two months I began to incorporate some carbs, paul saladino style. I felt much better this way and things were going well. I suppose this doesn’t count as carnivore. But I was still consuming tonne of meat and animal fat.
At around the three month mark I started to get some serious gastritis. Had to go to hospital and nobody has been able to help me. 8 months later I still have gastritis and am trying to slowly heal going all in on Grant’s diet.
In addition to the gastritis, at the time my was piss was dark my face was super pale and jaundice and I felt like I was going to die.
I would also like to mention that around the 3 month mark I began to consume half an ounce of cooked liver per day.
This could definitely be a confounding factor but I don’t believe it is the cause simply because it was so short lived and my personal theory is that my fragile system simply could not handle the sheer insane amount (relative to how much I consumed prior to carnivore) of animal fat entering my system.
100% agree, zerocarb is a disgrace. I think they get called out on other carnivore communities to I don’t think they reflect the rest of the community. The worst thing about them is they will yell to the top of their lungs that all you need is super fatty meat and water and will shut down any other discussion, but the moment you get sick it’s either “more fat!” or “go see a doctor!”
Hi everyone
How are you doing? Any news or health improvements?
I have been digging into CIRS (Chronic Inflamatory Response Syndrome) lately. A lot of carnivores are talking about it at the moment.
Has anyone of you considered that all of these symptoms are caused by a biotoxin or an overactive immune system and not purely by vitamin A?
Has anyone got tested or done the Shoemaker Protocol? Would love to know your ideas / opinions.
My candida / digestion is just getting worse and I've developped other symptoms such as rosacea despite being SUPER strict grass fed lion diet carnivore, low stress (9h of sleep, daily nature walk etc.) with no vitamin A for almost 2 years.
Sorry to say but what if this VA thing just isn't the problem? I don't know, just starting to question things. WHY is it not working?
I'd appreciate your answers.
Nina
@nina, maybe we do need some sort of fiber and diversity. To carry out toxins, because our world get increasingly toxic. Doing 100% carnivore you dont get any fiber and your gut biome is not going to be able to digest any carbs either... IDK. Just my 2 cents. I have lately been thinking a lot about it. Because i used to be a carnivore too. But somehow it is not satisfying me and i dont believe it is the cure all perfect diet that I once thought it was....... yeah.....
@nina As @inger said fibre might be helpful in sorting out gut dysbiosis, removing toxins and aiding the gut microbiome in improving detox. Fibre reduces inflammation often too. I'm currently experimenting with more fibre foods and finding benefits. I would stress I could only do this after replenishing my choline levels. It's possible despite high meat intake you are not absorbing choline very well and needing some more. Poor focus and brain fog are symptoms of choline deficiency. Only 1 bowel movement a day is a sign of low magnesium, B1 and/or choline too. Eggs are a good bioavailable source of choline and other nutrients. If you do indeed have candida then it is tied into the vit A toxicity but it suggests you are not getting rid of aldehydes well enough to keep up. Beans are a good source of molybdenum. But I'd suggest 1-2 eggs a day for a month or two to build yourself up with those nutrients first before further detox which can be depleting of nutrients. See if you have any other signs of molybdenum being low at this link. Meat not being a great source of it. https://www.thecandidadiet.com/molybdenum/#:~:text=Molybdenum%20is%20particularly%20useful%20for%20reducing%20the%20symptoms,its%20metabolism.%20Molybdenum%20has%20other%20health%20benefits%20too.
Vitamin A isn't a problem per se, Hypervitaminosis A is but it's not the cause of all health problems.
It looks like the Shoemaker Protocol is a supplement and drug based approach to dealing with mold related illness. CIRS sounds similar to MCS. I think that poor liver function plays a large role in these conditions. When liver function is impaired toxins cannot be cleared from the blood efficiently. By working to improve the health of the liver, the gut and the kidneys we can reduce the likelihood of toxins significantly affecting us. It requires a holistic approach: a balanced and nutritious diet, exercise and sunbathing.
A meat only diet could cause or exacerbate CIRS type symptoms, it's not balanced and it's stressful to the liver. In TCM excess red meat will exacerbate liver stagnation. Most cells prefer glucose over fatty acids and ketones. In a meat only diet the liver is working overtime to convert protein into glucose (gluconeogenesis). The human liver is not good at gluconeogenesis, we are not carnivores, we are starch eating omnivores. It's believed that the Inuit made gluconeogenesis adaptations but they also went to every effort to incorporate some plant foods and carbohydrates into their diet. Being more advanced than carnivores humans learnt to both hunt and gather and process grains to get both high quality animal protein and fat and the best source of glucose.
Quote from Inger on March 2, 2023, 12:41 am@tommy, if I may ask...
what were the illnesses you were trying to heal with carnivore?
The jaundice and gastritis totally sound like big bile dumps going back into the blood and stomach.... probably from the fat. uh.
Have you tried to do beans, to soak up the bile?
I also forgot to mention that my HIDA scan revealed a faulty gallbladder, so that is where the issue stems from. It also revealed bile refluxing back into my stomach causing gastritis, you guessed it correctly.
I’m currently having a lot of beans every day, it’s hard to tell if it’s helping, even if it is this will probably take a long time.
So in short carnivore/animal based destroyed my gallbladder but in defence of carnivore my gallbladder was probably already on its way out and it wasn’t able to handle the high fat consumption.