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Carnivore and Bile Acid Malabsorption
Quote from Tommy on March 2, 2023, 6:25 amSo in short carnivore/animal based destroyed my gallbladder but in defence of carnivore my gallbladder was probably already on its way out and it wasn’t able to handle the high fat consumption.
First, I am sorry you are having health issues in general and specifically with your gallbladder. On the latter, every major carnivore influencer probably has an article on podcast spiel about carnivore diet for those with gallbladder issues. I specifically recall Paleomedicina's article, which is here.
https://nutriintervention.com/gallbladder-attack-gallbladder-stones-or-something-else/
Quote from tim on March 2, 2023, 5:24 amA meat only diet could cause or exacerbate CIRS type symptoms, it's not balanced and it's stressful to the liver. In TCM excess red meat will exacerbate liver stagnation. Most cells prefer glucose over fatty acids and ketones. In a meat only diet the liver is working overtime to convert protein into glucose (gluconeogenesis). The human liver is not good at gluconeogenesis, we are not carnivores, we are starch eating omnivores. It's believed that the Inuit made gluconeogenesis adaptations but they also went to every effort to incorporate some plant foods and carbohydrates into their diet. Being more advanced than carnivores humans learnt to both hunt and gather and process grains to get both high quality animal protein and fat and the best source of glucose.
This generic attack on the carnivore diet is not particularly insightful, given that presumably hundreds of thousands of people have found tremendous benefits on it. As to CIRS symptoms specifically, carnivore nutritionist Judy Cho deals with the sickest patients and is a big proponent of the Shoemaker protocol for CIRS and has produced tons of podcast and other content promoting Shoemaker CIRS treatments. Her clinical experience is that CIRS patients on carnivore do much better than CIRS patients on omnivore diets. She personally eats a few plants as part of her diet, so she is far from a carnivore fanatic. She does oversee Shoemaker CIRS treatment protocols as long as there is a medical doctor involved to prescribe certain medications that she cannot prescribe herself.
There are certainly reasons to treat CIRS using other approaches than Shoemaker's and there is little evidence that the carnivore diet is by itself a sufficient alternative treatment for someone who is on CIRS. But to blame CIRS on the carnivore diet seems misguided, given the evidence about symptom relief in Judy Cho's clinical practice, which is heavily tilted towards CIRS these days.
What I wrote addressed a fundamental reason why a meat only diet is far from optimal. Your response contains no rebuttal to what I wrote. Nobody cares what some nutritionist is doing, if you disagree with what I wrote the only way to weaken my argument is to rebut the points I made.
Quote from tim on March 2, 2023, 8:11 amWhat I wrote addressed a fundamental reason why a meat only diet is far from optimal. Your response contains no rebuttal to what I wrote. Nobody cares what some nutritionist is doing, if you disagree with what I wrote the only way to weaken my argument is to rebut the points I made.
I was responding to your CIRS comments specifically, as the clinical evidence is in the opposite direction from what you imply. While based on one high-volume practitioner (she has ten employees now), the clinical evidence is that the carnivore diet is a great auxiliary treatment for those suffering from CIRS.
There are thousands of websites, videos and books discussing generic points about the carnivore diet. I am sure you can find many making the same points as you, although I would disagree with them.
Where is this evidence?
Your argument is based on the claims of an ex vegan turned carnivore woman with a history of an eating disorder and hospitalization due to mental illness with no health qualifications that uses a bogus credential to create a false impression that she does.
You can't make this up..
I second what @jeremy said. You should watch Judy Cho's videos about CIRS and see if that aligns with your experiences. Persistent Candida on a carnivore diet, in particular, sounds like it's associated with mold problems, and if you've been living in campus dormitories or other buildings that have a higher chance of harboring mold, that increases the likelihood yours is a mold problem.
If it is CIRS/mold you're dealing with, the most important step is to stop the exposure to mold or the offending toxin(s).
Speaking as a research scientist who has become increasingly aware of the pitfalls of journal- and peer-review-based publication, unless you have the raw data from a scientific publication and the statistical knowledge to properly interpret that data yourself, you have no more guarantee of the veracity of what you read in a publication than what a clinician is saying. There are a lot of steps in the scientific process that can lead one to the wrong conclusion, from poor study design and data collection, to improper use of statistics and data culling, and that doesn't even touch on the inherent bias of the authors, their motivations for publication, and the influence of the funding sources. Of all the scientific fields, dietary science appears to be at the upper tiers of shoddiness.
While I do agree with your opinions on Vitamin A, I don't think you realize how shaky the foundation for most of your dietary arguments is. What ultimately matters is what happens when the rubber meets the road, which is where clinicians exist. It doesn't matter how well-supported you think a published hypothesis may be...if it doesn't play out in real life, it's wrong. So long as clinicians like Judy Cho are being completely honest about what they see in their practices, they are playing a critical role in understanding and resolving illness, regardless of their personal backgrounds.
What's your list of qualifications for interpreting scientific publications, or for overruling the experience of clinicians when you yourself have no clinical practice (I'm assuming)?
So...back to the actual topic of this thread I started...
I recently went through another period where I was eating white sushi rice every day for a few weeks (1-3 cups cooked, mostly refrigerated and then reheated), and then I ceased eating that or any other carbs during the past week. My fat intake (primarily from beef and lamb tallow) remained largely the same with and without rice consumption. While I was eating rice, I was fighting constipation. As soon as I stopped eating rice, I started getting loose stools that burned, were more pale, and returned to the appearance of wax. This would seem to indicate bile acid malabsorption and/or fat malabsorption and/or Vitamin A elimination.
Based on this, the switch from using mostly glucose for energy to using mostly fat for energy makes a big difference to what is going on with Vitamin A and bile acid regulation in the body. Unfortunately, without measuring the contents of the stool, I can't say whether the loose stools are productive in getting more Vitamin A out. I could see it going either way...diarrhea is a sign you're doing something wrong to the body, or diarrhea is a sign that your body is releasing toxins into the intestines to flush them out.
I've been mostly carnivore for the 2.75 years of my low vA diet and have seen a number of symptoms come and go, with overall improvement, so whether the diarrhea is productive or not, things seem to be moving forward despite (or because) of it. I do seem to have a more noticeable sense of lightness and relief after passing these loose stools than when I'm eating carbs and/or fiber. Back in the early days when I was having insane explosive watery diarrhea, I often felt amazingly good after passing some of that in the morning...pretty much the opposite of what you expect to feel when you're getting that kind of diarrhea all the time.
Quote from Nina on March 2, 2023, 1:35 amHas anyone of you considered that all of these symptoms are caused by a biotoxin or an overactive immune system and not purely by vitamin A?
Has anyone got tested or done the Shoemaker Protocol? Would love to know your ideas / opinions.
Yes, I do have CIRS and was diagnosed according to the Shoemaker Protocol, although I am not pursuing treatment using that protocol.
Quote from wavygravygadzooks on March 2, 2023, 11:50 amSpeaking as a research scientist who has become increasingly aware of the pitfalls of journal- and peer-review-based publication, unless you have the raw data from a scientific publication and the statistical knowledge to properly interpret that data yourself, you have no more guarantee of the veracity of what you read in a publication than what a clinician is saying. There are a lot of steps in the scientific process that can lead one to the wrong conclusion, from poor study design and data collection, to improper use of statistics and data culling, and that doesn't even touch on the inherent bias of the authors, their motivations for publication, and the influence of the funding sources. Of all the scientific fields, dietary science appears to be at the upper tiers of shoddiness.
While I do agree with your opinions on Vitamin A, I don't think you realize how shaky the foundation for most of your dietary arguments is. What ultimately matters is what happens when the rubber meets the road, which is where clinicians exist. It doesn't matter how well-supported you think a published hypothesis may be...if it doesn't play out in real life, it's wrong. So long as clinicians like Judy Cho are being completely honest about what they see in their practices, they are playing a critical role in understanding and resolving illness, regardless of their personal backgrounds.
What's your list of qualifications for interpreting scientific publications, or for overruling the experience of clinicians when you yourself have no clinical practice (I'm assuming)?
Just because science isn't perfect you don't get to dismiss evidence that doesn't fit your bias.
My nutritional perspective is mostly based on an understanding of physiology and an understanding of the components of foods along with a historical understanding of human dietary practices. To think that the claims of Judy Cho trump that approach is absurd.
Jeremy made an appeal to authority as the basis for his argument while not addressing my points, you're doing similar. Because of that appeal to authority I examined the authority in question. Turns out the authority is highly uncredible. Even if the authority was credible it would be a very weak way to respond to my points about human physiological macronutrient needs.