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Carnivore and Bile Acid Malabsorption
Quote from lil chick on March 11, 2023, 4:35 pm@christian I would bet that the perfectionism thing has to do with being able to force yourself to eat what others have told you is "right" instead of doing what feels good!
I "should" eat all these organic pumpkins I grew! ("oh god not pumpkin again! says everyone around the table, and the intuitive ones hide it under the plate). I "should" take this cod liver oil! etc.
Definitely a perfectionist, but way less now then when I was younger.
Competitive sports, school/studies were everything, raised in a very controlling religious doomsday cult. Bodybuilding was my way of controlling things but eventually controlled me. Health collapsed, drank and smoked because I couldn't play sports or be active like I used to. Tried all types of diets and would eat whatever it took, to hell if it tasted like crap.
--"You lack conciseness"--
Conciseness: giving a lot of information clearly and in a few words; brief but comprehensive.
Your statements are shorter than mine but they lack clarity or comprehensiveness. When someone is using such insufficiently detailed statements in an argument, their opponent is forced to deconstruct all possible interpretations in order to make a clear refutation. Thus, the opponent's response appears long-winded by comparison. Imagine a game of chess in which one player is inevitably going to be put into checkmate in three moves. An expert player who has memorized all outcomes for a given configuration of pieces on the board does not have to play the game to completion when all outcomes are known to be checkmate; in that position, they would simply concede to another expert without wasting time. But a novice player who doesn't believe the expert forces the expert to demonstrate how checkmate is inevitable. Depending on the number of pieces on the board, the novice could have well more than 10 different possible moves per turn. Even when checkmate is only three moves away, the expert could potentially have to demonstrate 1,000 different scenarios (10 x 10 x 10 moves) to definitively prove their argument, depending on how stubborn the novice is in accepting the outcome.
You are that novice demanding every last detail even though the math has already been done by the experts (I'm not saying I'm the expert who did the original math, but I am experienced enough to have learned and understood the math to the point of repeating it accurately). Worse, you are a person who shakes the board to conceal their loss.
The material needed to respond to your recent remarks already exists in my previous answers. If I did respond to any of them again, I would be repeating myself, and that would not be concise.
If anyone feels my answers are insufficient, I would encourage you to go to the sources of that information and learn for yourselves (in fact, you should never just trust someone at their word...always dig for the sources of that information yourself). Miki Ben-Dor, Bill Schindler, and Amber O'Hearn are great places to start learning about the scientific underpinnings of humans as facultative carnivores.
Of the two of us, I'm the one who has been trained in scientific writing, taught scientific writing, published peer-reviewed scientific manuscripts, conducted peer-review of the manuscripts of other scientists, and edited the writing of other scientists to be more clear and concise. I've been practicing scientific writing for over 10 years now, conciseness being one of the core principles of such writing. Science requires clarity of language to convey complex material, which is why it's loaded with words that are highly specific, and why it takes entire books to comprehensively cover even highly specific subjects. Brevity is one of the least important characteristics of scientific writing; sound reasoning is everything.
Of the two of us, I'm also the one who's been on both a carnivore diet and mixed diets, who has competed at high enough levels of athletics to put such diets to the test, who has experience in extreme/wilderness environments hunting large and small game, who practices animal husbandry, and who has grown, gathered, and hunted/fished as much food as possible in an attempt at a self-reliant subsistence lifestyle. You sit at home playing pretend scientist on YouTube.
Which of the following looks poorly adapted to its diet and environment?
Quote from Armin on March 12, 2023, 1:15 pmraised in a very controlling religious doomsday cult. Bodybuilding was my way of controlling things but eventually controlled me. Health collapsed, drank and smoked because I couldn't play sports or be active like I used to. Tried all types of diets and would eat whatever it took, to hell if it tasted like crap.
ohhh.. this could be me @armin.. raised in a cult, and being able to eat anything in belief it was healthy....
@christian I do think the perfectionist tendencies are part of people's innate character and journey. Some people will always be the detail person and others the big picture. We can probably be both at the same time. We can be the writer in one mode one day and the critic the next day. One parent can also have the tendencies and you copy them until you learn better strategies. My father did a job that he didn't like so that reinforces that work is going to be a hard experience. It's easier to focus on maths because you can get a higher mark for it. Painting or writing is more subjective and you avoid that cause the result is less obviously perfect. I've tended to leave a job and set up my own firm when it just got too painful to stay. Then a business partnership broke up 20 odd years ago so I was given the opportunity to pursue my own interests. Music is one way to find yourself by listening to or finding your favourite music you become more in tune with yourself. Listening for the quiet hunch and getting feedback eventually teaches you a better way.
We had a discussion about the appearance of one woman, Lori, who had been on a carnivore diet for say 20 years. This old-timers seem to be coming out of the woodwork, as this podcast by host Anthony Chafee features guest Rich, who has been on the carnivore diet for 40 years. Related to our previous discussion of Lori's appearance, Rich looks much younger than his age of 54.
@jeremy Also has that "tired eyes" look. There is plenty of 50yo+ regular guys that look much healthier and eat regular diet and who also can work hard manual labor jobs, do sports etc. What this guy can do with his body? So far from what I saw long term carnivore people look even more unhealthy than long term vegans..
I agree Jiri, I think that ultra-low carb can give a haggard look (especially in the middle-aged) because there is less cushion of extra water weight and that extra few pounds of fat that omnivores have.
I think there are a few conditions such as diabetes type 1 and epilepsy that might benefit from an ultra-low carb diet but personally I'm not sure I'd do it just for the weight-loss or type 2 diabetes benefits. As for carnivore itself, I do believe that cutting back on veg toxins is a great idea but you don't have to be carnivore to do it.
@lil-chick "I think that ultra-low carb can give a haggard look (especially in the middle-aged) because there is less cushion of extra water weight and that extra few pounds of fat that omnivores have. "
No it is not about that. Lean face with defined jaw makes male looking better not worse. But in case of carnivores It is about chronically elevated stress hormones, chronically low anabolic hormones, chronically low insulin is also bad thing.. And it shows in their faces.. Unhealthy looking skin, "tired eyes" look.. You don't have to be NASA scientist to know that the body has to deal with a lot more stress from constantly making glucose from tissues by elevated cortisol. Instead of just eat some carbs.. That is one aspect. The other are dysbalances in micronutrients.. Iron overload being the big one. + as we know the lack of fiber that keeps eliminating old and toxic bile from the body.. This simply can't be good long term.. Now if fixes some really bad autoimmune issues and the person can function because of carnivore diet that's amazing and I can only support that. But to say carnivore diet is "optimal" for all people? I would say that person is delusional...
I think Rick is easily in the top 1% of people health wise, age adjusted. He hasn't been to a doctor in 30 years and a dentist in 40. He seems to have effortless health and people mistake his age as twenty years younger. I think Jiri's criticisms at someone being interviewed for his or her amazing health are off base. The only evidence of anything negative about Rick is Jiri's "tired eyes" theory, and that seems very Ray Peatish to me. If you accept that what Ray Peat says is true, then of course the carnivore diet is a bad diet.
The US population is 330 million and so the top 1% corresponds to 3.3 million people, which is a lot. There are probably many other people equally healthy, again age-adjusted, to Rick; we lack the data to make comparisons among this elite group. What makes Rick interesting is that he is the Westernized, currently-living person who has been on the carnivore diet the longest, as far as is publicly known to me.
Quote from Retinoicon on March 13, 2023, 4:21 amWe had a discussion about the appearance of one woman, Lori, who had been on a carnivore diet for say 20 years. This old-timers seem to be coming out of the woodwork, as this podcast by host Anthony Chafee features guest Rich, who has been on the carnivore diet for 40 years. Related to our previous discussion of Lori's appearance, Rich looks much younger than his age of 54.
The guy on the left reminds me of Glenn Quagmire in Family Guy. Both guys seem super chill and easy-going gentlemen. I do see what is meant with the tired eyes-look, but who cares if people who eat all meat diets feel healthy with it. I didn't work for me.