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Detox setback and adaptable body type
@ronn yes, you seem to have encountered the detox setback. It's a pity you left out the eggs 1.5 years ago but we've all made mistakes. With glyphosate/gluten issues the choline needs seem to increase. I had a high need for choline 900 mgs a day to replenish and so did @puddleduck.
As you said: I hope choline will fix it. I only eat 350-450 g (1 IBS) meat a day but should eat closer to 600 to get enough choline. So I probably built up a deficiency from when I stopped eggs 1.5 years ago.
I managed to reintroduce organic spelt after 2 years 5 months on the detox so there is some hope that reducing Vitamin A helps a wheat problem. I think the vit A reduction with balanced diet and glycine in foods will help detox glyphosate eventually.
So, back in front of a laptop and time to properly read through all posts. Great and important work you all do in trying to map out causes and treatments of detox setbacks. I wonder if it could be systematized in some way?
@jaj I think I replied to your questions but I will repeat: yes, I probably built up a choline deficiency, and yes the symptoms are variations on old symptoms. But a 9 month long poison dump seems unlikely. Or who knows?
@andrew I would be very interested in hearing your thoughts about facial skin troubles. I think I answered your question about history in an earlier post. And like you said, gut biome may also play an important role for the intestinal barrier (maybe by producing nutrients or poisons). I have taken a lot of antibiotics in my life and possibly have SIBO as well. I have not bothered to learn about that. One thing at a time! Regarding glyphosate: interesting about increased need for choline! I have tried glycine but it upsets my stomach. I will try again but this time scale it up gradually, as with choline.
And @margo I am impressed that you seem to have been able to find signal in the noise so to speak. Maybe you have the dicipline to keep most things constant and vary only one thing at a time? I would like to but I don't have the dicipline. Except for the first two months, out of fear, when I varied almost nothing. I noticed it was a very powerful way of seeing the effect of any introduced change. Your take seems to be that it was nutrient deficiencies that caused your setbacks, while Andrew and Jenny are thinking of cell/intestinal integrity and choline deficiency. I agree that it might be multi-factorial, and like her I am also very interested in your experiences. Vitamin E sounds interesting but as with omega-3, and maybe, maybe choline, there is this risk of it being the duration paradox. I ate omega-3 (in the form of norwegian seal oil since I can't eat fish) for several years and felt vastly better on it, but now I wonder...
I have lost only half of my overweight before stalling, so that is a small mystery as well. Why does not the rest disappear? My theory about body type is probably mistaken. Maybe overingestion of zinc or something made my liver stay in overdrive. This thread made me realize I probably have a multifactorial poisoning: vitamin-A from liver and eating the rainbow; cupper from my love of chocolate; glyphosate from lots of bread; aldehydes from processed and fried food (20% of frying oil are aldehydes!). Probably some heavy metals and strange compounds from plastic and food additives as well. Lead from car fuel in the seventies if nothing else and amalgam. And the inheritance from my mother. I am confused by it all! But soldiering on, with moderation and a more open mind now thanks to you eminent people on this forum!
@ronn plateaued issues are the worst; I hope the weight issue resolves for you. I agree that this forum is great for moral support to keep going. I also definitely think there is validity to your body type theory and imagine that in time more of this topic will be borne out. Best wishes on it all! I'm curious; in what way did the seal oil make you feel better? I have no clue how much validity there is to the EPA/DHA studies/recommendations/etc. but do not want to run myself into a deficiency *solely* out of pride that I "knew" something that the masses didn't. I'm interested in hearing others' experiences to back up a decision to exclude seafood if I go that route.
And thank you for the kind words. You're right; the cause and effect conclusions that I have drawn were made possible by my making only one intentional change at a time and returning to baseline if the addition/subtraction did not work. Also, my Achilles' heel is mental health issues - while they can be life-sucking when they are bad, mine seem to be ridiculously sensitive indicators for a myriad of biochemical processes, so observing assumed cause and effect by using those symptoms became pretty easy over time. From that perspective, they've actually been good weapons against this mess. Lastly, I am in favor of cautious supplementation if one suspects a nutrient deficiency, even if it is just to identify the deficiency and then switch to a food-based approach. That seems to be the best way to drawn firm conclusions which are not muddied by the other factors in a food. Only time will tell if my conclusions were right and if the interventions were in sum total conducive to long-term health and/or if I skipped over something important because an intervention had no immediate effect. But for now, my life is 100x better than it was right before I started the detox, and still improving, so I will press on. There is a method to the madness 🙂
Right, my take is that it was nutrient deficiencies that caused my setbacks, but what I am unsure of is whether or not choline deficiency/cell membrane issues were behind those nutrient deficiencies or if it was just increased detox demands alone that did it. I am definitely no expert on anything nutrition-wise (is anyone, really?), so some of the ideas I throw out which I have not yet tested, like vitamin E and EPA/DHA, are just for brainstorming purposes. I do plan to share more of my experiences soon. I've got a few last things (but I've been telling myself that for 6 months! ha) to sort through before I can feel good about what I will post. But I will definitely share once my mind is more settled. The short of it is that wheat bran (I have 10 TBSP a day), B1 supplements (benfotiamine), B2 supplements (riboflavin 5 phosphate), and coconut oil have been game-changers for me; zinc supplements, selenium supplements, and switching from canned to home-cooked beans are honorable mentions; not taking enough B vitamin supplements caused issues, but taking too much of those supplements caused the exact same problems; and I seem to need a very steady supply of Vitamin C (which I get in the form of white potatoes).
@margo yes, these issues are inextricably linked I think. The big detox I think uses up phosphatidylcholine in the bile. When we overdo it eventually the bile flow slows up and we get digestion issues. Then lower choline seems to affect absorption so vicious cycle sets up and nutrients get depleted.
Right, my take is that it was nutrient deficiencies that caused my setbacks, but what I am unsure of is whether or not choline deficiency/cell membrane issues were behind those nutrient deficiencies or if it was just increased detox demands alone that did it.
@andrew-b it does seem very likely that that is the case for some. I have some observations that suggest that choline has not been a primary issue in my case; however, experimenting with it is on my list of things to tackle if working through my remaining low-hanging fruit does not clear up all my issues.
I think the detox can definitely cause nutrient deficiencies. Garrett Smith used to talk about this, when he was more sensible. I definitely saw an immediate severe drop in certain minerals on my hair tests once I’d started the detox. I’m very interested in whether addressing your targeted nutrients will be the answer for you Margo. B1 and B2 deficiencies are definitely on my radar. I’m nervous of addressing at the moment incase supplements affect my electrolyte balance which has been described as ‘precarious’ by my NT and she says improve my cell membranes first. I definitely have B vitamin deficiencies going on.
I don’t think that phosphatidylcholine deficiency will be an issue for all. A diet high in meat/fish or a young women with good PEMT genes may get away with it. However, if PC deficiency sets in then it makes nutrient deficiencies a lot worse. I think that this is the big issue for me, however, that does not mean the same is true for everyone. There is bound to be a variety of issues causing detox setback cycles.
The conclusion I can draw from all this is that the vA detox combined with the limited diet sets some people up for health ruining deficiencies. The more we can understand this the better we can avoid it.
@jaj The best guess we have on the sensitivity to lutein issues is that it's a nerve problem by David Hagersten. That could be a choline issue also. It could also be connected to other nutrients being lost on detox. Choline is rarely the solution in isolation. B1, magnesium, sulfur, fibre, zinc, fat and protein may all be in the orchestra in different circumstances like fixing intestinal permeability and nerve problems (folate, B12 possibly too).
@jaj that seems like a good idea to fix issues in a phased approach. B vitamin supplements seem powerful for better or for worse. Hoping your efforts will turn things around for you.
Here are my current best guesses. Of course these could be totally wrong! Based on how much they’ve helped and based on the symptoms they’ve improved so far, I think fixing my surface-level nutrient deficiencies will clear up the issues that have arisen on the detox except for my increased VA sensitivity. I think they will help my VA sensitivity but will not be the solution. I’m very interested in you and @andrew-b discussion on LRAT. That makes a lot of sense - why would the body devote resources to something it doesn’t need? I’ve been very strict on this diet, so I would not be surprised if I am someone whose LRAT production has declined. Seeing your thoughts there strengthened my suspicion: cheating on my low VA diet with something even moderately high would not just be annoying but might be downright dangerous at this point. I think it’s an important discussion. This isn’t first on my priority list but it is something I’m concerned about. I plan to attempt to retrain my body to accept some VA after I shore up my defenses: other nutrients’ statuses and then a mental break from making changes for at least a few months 🙂
Also, FWIW, folate/b12 but especially zinc seemed to help my lutein sensitivity. @andrew-b that’s a nice list you have going.
I’ve been meaning to get some comprehensive blood work done. Serum selenium, serum retinol, etc. I might do some sort of genetic testing. I am 26 so could maybe add to the discussion on young women/PEMT genes and suspected choline issues or lack thereof. I know my MTHFR C677T status (homozygous - which could be influencing my emotional vulnerabilities and high need for betaine and B2), but that’s about it.
@margo omega-3 had an anti-inflammatory effect on me. I am sure since I stopped serveral times, fell back into a more inflamed state, and then ordered more. I felt relieved and more relaxed, as if some long time missing piece fell into place. (I have been allergic to fish since 3 or 4 years old.) Could still be the duration paradox of course.
Something hard to describe is how the improvements on this diet and the setbacks that followed seem to coexist. Except for the rather severe setback symptoms I actually feel better and have more energy; less stuffed (with various poisons?) somehow. I am not sure I would feel such a big difference now if I started omega-3 again.
Something that had almost the same anti-inflammatory effect on me, that I later stopped due to GS negative views on sulphur, was sulphoraphane in the form of the supplement Broccomax. I ordered it directly from the manufacturer in Germany. The seal-oil (omega-3 without allergenic fish) I ordered directly from Norway.