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Eggs as part of Vitamin A reduction
Quote from tim on March 7, 2023, 8:09 pmSorry to hear that your crown has thinned. Have you been following the meat, beans and rice diet or what has your diet been? What was your starting serum retinol? Serum ferritin? Thyroid labs?
Not exactly meat, beans, and rice but meat and some starches, usually sugary stuff like apple juice and honey because rice doesn't sit well with me since I suspect some SIBO. Activated charcoal seems to help. Beans make me gassy and uncomfortable. Another strong indication of too many bacteria in the wrong place.
Uff, my serum vitamin A levels have been really high. In January 2019, it was the first time I measured vitamin A, and it was 3.1 μmol/l. A few months later, it was even more elevated after I started with a low vitamin A diet in March 2019, so it's 4 years I've been following a low vitamin A diet. Anyway, back then in 2019 my second reading was 4.14 μmol/l. Pretty typical, the liver started to excrete vA and so blood levels rose. My most recent test was done a year ago in January 2022, vitamin A was at 3.24 μmol/l. It'd be interesting to see where vitamin A levels are now at.
Ferritin has always been within the range, usually a tad bit on the low side, depending on who you ask, around 88 μg/l was the measure a year ago (the same time as vA was measured). T4 is usually also on the lower end, but I don't have any data on that.
I think addressing SIBO from different angles has been most helpful. After Andrew started to write about the multiple health benefits of eggs, I started to supplement sunflower lecithin, eggs don't sit well with me at the moment. Maybe I'll try again in the near future. Also, what's really been helpful in my case was Magnesium L-threonate.
I think I just need more time, and things will sort out. Unless you have some specific idea how to tangibly improve the situation.
Yeah that serum retinol level is very high, I'm not surprised hair loss has continued.
I had SIBO so I took a specific herbal formula that was used in a SIBO study. The other option is antibiotics. I would have used antibiotics (I would have researched the specific ones I'd be taking) if the herbs hadn't worked.
I don't see how I could have started to improve my health if I hadn't dealt with the SIBO first. SIBO restricts nutritional intake, prevents nutrient absorption and produces toxins. It looks like it causes heart disease.
Quote from Hermes on March 8, 2023, 2:09 pmQuote from tim on March 7, 2023, 8:09 pmSorry to hear that your crown has thinned. Have you been following the meat, beans and rice diet or what has your diet been? What was your starting serum retinol? Serum ferritin? Thyroid labs?
Not exactly meat, beans, and rice but meat and some starches, usually sugary stuff like apple juice and honey because rice doesn't sit well with me since I suspect some SIBO. Activated charcoal seems to help. Beans make me gassy and uncomfortable. Another strong indication of too many bacteria in the wrong place.
Uff, my serum vitamin A levels have been really high. In January 2019, it was the first time I measured vitamin A, and it was 3.1 μmol/l. A few months later, it was even more elevated after I started with a low vitamin A diet in March 2019, so it's 4 years I've been following a low vitamin A diet. Anyway, back then in 2019 my second reading was 4.14 μmol/l. Pretty typical, the liver started to excrete vA and so blood levels rose. My most recent test was done a year ago in January 2022, vitamin A was at 3.24 μmol/l. It'd be interesting to see where vitamin A levels are now at.
Ferritin has always been within the range, usually a tad bit on the low side, depending on who you ask, around 88 μg/l was the measure a year ago (the same time as vA was measured). T4 is usually also on the lower end, but I don't have any data on that.
I think addressing SIBO from different angles has been most helpful. After Andrew started to write about the multiple health benefits of eggs, I started to supplement sunflower lecithin, eggs don't sit well with me at the moment. Maybe I'll try again in the near future. Also, what's really been helpful in my case was Magnesium L-threonate.
I think I just need more time, and things will sort out. Unless you have some specific idea how to tangibly improve the situation.
After 3 years of low A your (very high) serum vA increased!!
All these serum A blood test anecdotes that I’ve seen continue to add weight to Grant’s theory.
On the topic of B vitamin depletion I remembered I’d listed 6 ways in which the vA detox can deplete Bs, on this thread. 3rd comment from last. I think it’s still quite a good list!
https://ggenereux.blog/discussion/topic/riboflavins-role-in-an-important-va-detox-pathway/?part=5
Also the earlier comments are v useful, started by Tim about riboflavin.
Here’s the list I came up with in Sept 2021
I think that the vA detox tends to deplete nutrients for a number of reasons:
1. Increased usage of detox enzymes and pathways
2. Repair of liver and other tissues requiring extra nutrients (Dr Gominak work)
3. Toxicity affecting microbiome disturbing its production of B vitamins. People often start the detox with dysbiosis I think.
4. Production of intermediate products that use up nutrients. The one I’ve looked at is retinaldehyde (and other aldehydes) that uses up B1, B6 and folate.
5. Stress depleted nutrients. Some people may find the diet stressful.
6. Limited diet may affect microbiome and/or be insufficient for an individuals needs in one or more nutrients.
There are probably other factors too but these are my current thoughts. The precise nutrient depletions and levels will depend I think on genetics, microbiome and diet. Some people may be fine and others not.
Please add add any extra thoughts.
Good list.
Also:
- Elevated retinoic acid interferes with the enzymatic conversion of the B vitamins into their active forms.
- Elevated retinoic acid interferes with B vitamins being recycled and retained.
- Elevated retinoic acid destroys collagen in the gums, in bones, in skin, everywhere increasing vitamin C requirements.
- Elevated retinoic acid causes elevated calcitriol levels depleting vitamin D levels.
- Elevated retinoic acid depletes vitamins C and E presumably due to the inflammation it causes.
Dietary CS Prevents and Treats Cholestasis
Interestingly, dietary CS prevented the development of cholestasis in the HFD‐fed Pemt–/– mice. Although CS did not normalize the hepatic PC:PE ratio to Pemt+/+ levels, the PC:PE ratios were increased to approximately 1.4 after CS compared to approximately 1.1 after the HFD, which may have been sufficient to improve hepatic membrane integrity and function (Fig. (Fig.7C).7C). Strikingly, we were also able to effectively treat Pemt–/– mice that developed cholestasis on an HFD with dietary CS (Fig. (Fig.6A).6A). Although it was not significant, treatment with dietary choline also increased the PC:PE ratio to approximately 1.4, which was sufficient to restore hepatic BSEP protein levels and improve liver health. This suggests that the canalicular membrane, a major site for phospholipid export, may be sensitive to minute changes in the PC:PE balance. Recently, 4‐phenylbutyric acid, a drug known to alleviate ER stress, has successfully treated a case of BRIC2.43 Interestingly, CS reduced ER stress in Pemt–/– mice, which may be an additional mechanism by which cholestasis is alleviated. Phospholipid imbalance is the major underlying cause in patients with PFIC1 and BRIC1. Because there are limited therapies for cholestasis, CS might prove to be effective as a potential addition to therapy for these patients with cholestasis.
In conclusion, we have established that PEMT is a critical modulator of biliary secretion processes and “canalicular health” in mice fed an HFD by maintaining PC availability. Moreover, the experiments revealed that dietary CS might be a novel adjuvant therapy for the subset of patients with cholestasis who have phospholipid imbalance and/or decreased hepatic PC availability.
Not sure if this has been posted.
This thread makes me change out part of my beef consume with eggs. Eggs and beans! yay 🙂
That sounds like a awesome way to detox.. 🙂 Beans help transport out all the toxins so it just dont recirculate. And eggs give the nutrients needed. I would love if it would work because eggs and beans are such simple and easy food and i love them both, just plain. Easy to take with you to work, not much mess in the kitchen .. 😉
and... some home made spelt bread for dessert.. yum 🙂
@tim-2 definitely worth a re post though. Reading the PEMT -/- knockout mice studies is very enlightening. (PEMT is main way we endogenously produce choline). It highlights how essential choline is to our metabolism. I feel I’ve been an experimental low choline mouse. Disaster. Don’t do it! Now trying the (mouse) choline supplementation (CS) cure. 🐁
I think there's another thing that happens. Perhaps somebody can reword it in more scientific terms. What I think happens is that high protein helps the liver remove the fat in the liver and help it repair. And it's possibly largely due to the choline. The choline is then available to help the body remove the toxins in the bile as well. The body gets caught up in the detox because it's being forced to by high zinc supplements, high selenium, high protein, high molybdenum, low carbohydrates, high fat at times, high fibre for some and high beef for many (zinc high). The body in a strong detox from removal of all Vitamin A foods isnt going to stop and repair low choline areas. It gets pushed into detoxing. And if you're not getting enough choline rich foods the digestion, the brain and the muscles (to name 3 areas) never get into repair or replenishment mode. And the increased bile flow leads to many of the problems identified in the other comments because of the leakiness in the system. eg my body healed lots of things perhaps less choline related but never fully repaired the digestive tract until I increased the eggs to 3-4 a day.