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Fat
I wasn't disagreeing with her however I think that calories in/out gets confused with the fallacy that everyone has the same static metabolic rate and that is the point I was making.
If you don't think your experience was the result of malabsorption or fast metabolism what do you think was happening to the glucose you absorbed if it wasn't metabolized via glycolysis and the krebs cycle or the pentose phosphate pathway?
Quote from tim on August 31, 2023, 10:32 pm@lil-chick wrote:
I gave up on calories-in-calories-out long ago. It just doesn't stand up to my reality. Your body decides lots of things on it's own including how much fat to keep on board and how much muscle. Some of it is genetic, and some of it is in reaction to life. It's so much more complex (insulin resistance is a good example of that) than basic math.
I'm not saying that if you starve an animal it won't loose weight. But talk to any person such as me who "just doesn't gain" and you will find that no matter how much that person eats, he or she just doesn't gain.
True but remember that malabsorption is often a significant factor in people that are underweight.
If calories in/calories out was true, dieting would be so much more useful and successful.
The body can dispose of excess protein without metabolizing it for energy but I think calories in/out is true for carbs and fat. Once a fatty acid or sugar is absorbed it must be burned unless a ketone body or a sugar is excreted in the urine. The fallacy though is that the rate of metabolism is static and the same for everyone, it isn't as evidenced by hypothyroidism causing hypometabolism.
@lil-chick With my 10+ years in the fitness I really need to say that calorie in and calorie out is by far the most important factor. Yes there is plenty of other factors that can make it hard, very hard for you to lose weight or gain weight, but still calories in and out is the most important. I have low thyroid TSH over 10 and guess what. I can still have veins on my abs if I want to. Because I have no problem eating nothing but dry cooked meat in water with rice and exercise.. What you described about people who eat a lot and they say that they can't gain weight or people who are doing stupid diets and are morbidly obese all that can be easily explained. People who think they eat a lot often don't lol, but people who do and still can't gain weight have simply healthy metabolism so the more energy they eat the more energy they burn by moving more and especially their Non-exercise activity thermogenesis (NEAT) is very high. They simply can't stay still and they move all the time. That burns a lot of energy.. The other case are mostly people who damaged their metabolism because they did some stupid crash diet on very low calories so they lowered their basal metabolic rate (BMR) and after that they abandoned that diet and started binge eating. So they gained that weight back or even more, but their BMR staid lower than before and because they were no long enough in calorie surplus to speed up their metabolism(because they started gain weight again). They started some stupid low calorie diet again... People who know how thebody works know all of this. That's why for example for competition they will start diet and will lower calories very slowly by 200-500kcal at a time. So they don't slow their metabolism that much and after competition they know that they need to stay in calorie surplus at least the same amount of time they were in deficit in order to speed up their metabolism again. So once they start diet for a show next time they don't have slow metabolism and can burn fat easily again.. This is simply the case for 90% of people. They eat too much or do stupid diets. Now like I said there are some cases where the people have completely fucked up body from pharma drugs or from some genetic defect. But that is minority of people.. You have to understand that speed up metabolism or slow down metabolism takes time and most importantly you have to understand that the body is designed to adapt to whatever to survive. If you understand the body you can manipulate it like you desire. But most people are completely lost. On the other hand people in fitness are the best in it. They do it all the time and no you don't have to take drugs/steroids for that.. I was also many years not taking anything, but everyone was telling me that I have to be on steriods lol.. So pls don't dismiss the biggest pool of experience with body composition transformations just because some of them use drugs..
"The body can dispose of excess protein without metabolizing it for energy but I think calories in/out is true for carbs and fat. Once a fatty acid or sugar is absorbed it must be burned unless a ketone body or a sugar is excreted in the urine. The fallacy though is that the rate of metabolism is static and the same for everyone, it isn't as evidenced by hypothyroidism causing hypometabolism."
Yes I am hypothyroid which means I don't burn that much calories there fore I need less calories... People love to use all kinds of excuses for their lack of self discipline.. Btw you don't have to burn sugar. You can store it as glycogen in the muscles and the liver. You just have to move your body so every time you eat sugars you will use them for energy of for glycogen replenishment. I agree with fat. If you eat excess of calories you will store all the fat you eat.. The body will always use sugar for energy first. That is also well known in fitness that is why you don't see in their diets especially in the off season when they are in calorie surplus same amount of calories from fats as from carbs. They push carbs with protein and keep fats low. Converting excess calories from carbs into body fat is much more harder for the body than storing excess of calories from fat into fat cells.. At the end of the day calories are what matters. Average people are not fat from some magical reasons. They are fat because they consume more calories than they burn and all diets if they work they work because they somehow lower calories.
@jessica2
See you are great example of people I was talking about. You don't know exactly how this drug works. So you are making wrong assumptions. This drug is effective for weight loss because it makes you less hungry= you eat less calories..
That fat girl in the video is basically saying that because she has zero self discipline she needs some drugs to poison her body. So she feels full and doesn't overeat.. That's all it is..
Quote from tim on September 1, 2023, 4:27 amI wasn't disagreeing with her however I think that calories in/out gets confused with the fallacy that everyone has the same static metabolic rate and that is the point I was making.
If you don't think your experience was the result of malabsorption or fast metabolism what do you think was happening to the glucose you absorbed if it wasn't metabolized via glycolysis and the krebs cycle or the pentose phosphate pathway?
I wasnt meaning to extrapolate as much as I probably did. I just think that pragmatically it often doesnt work as well as it is supposed to. I understand your question, indeed. I belive malabsorbation is/was part of the problem but I think a very underestimated factor in addition to the metabolic rate is the efficiency of the machinery. That IS very unspecific but I tend to think that the less gunk in the system the more effectively the energy is used. We have different pathways for many metabolic processes which can be blocked and redirected, as well as a lot of energy-consuming detox systems as well. I assume having to run these "backup-systems" as well as the production of enzymes, carrier proteins... I mean even the integrity of the cellmembrane could potentially affect this if Im not wrong. Its a bit basic level answer but in one way I think it is as usefull as a more specific one that eliminates all other versions. Its interesting though to note( though even if my thyroid panels always been sort of fine (Im sure I've had reduced metabolism as well though, but now im generally 37degrees)), that reduced thyroid function also sometimes leads to vasting away and the inability to gain weight even though the opposite is more common - this has been described in the thyroid litterature since the 1800s. Ive sort of given up on understanding the exact reasons but find that I gradually needs a bit less calories (about 25%) as my health is improving even though my temps, pulse and thyroid panels are more or less stable. Activity level too. Even shorter version, yes to metabolism and malabsorbation but probably just thick oil in the engine making resistence.
sorry for the somewhat ramblin style.
Ps. Of course the in/out is true in theory if such things as malabsorbation and the effects of different foods on different secondary processes, and metabolism is taken into account, I just find it sort of useless as a way of presenting it as in practice it turns out that just f.ex stopping or adding a certain food might affect weight gain much more then the actual calories you eat even if that is due it increasing some of the stuff we both mentioned.
@jessica2 "you still don't seem to understand that altered metabolism due to insulin/bloodsugar is the root cause."
It is not. I was spiking my insulin with high GI foods like jasmine rice with chicken breasts or rice cakes with protein shake 6 times a day even in cutting diet. I lost body fat easily. Why? Because I was in calorie deficit... Yes I was hungry all the time so what? If I want to look good I will be hungry I can deal with it. It is completely normal in animal kingdom to be hungry. All animals are hungry in nature.. So just because you can eat 10 000 kcal of any food you want you will do it? Well if you don't care about your body you can for sure.. Is it hard to look good and not to be fat? Well look around what you think? Yes it is very hard. So what?
" If your metabolism is skewed, if you eat a lot, you'll gain weight and if you DONT eat a lot your metabolism will slow and you will still gain weight."
No you don't gain weight on calorie deficit diet. Have you seen people with anorexia gaining weight? Or people in concentration camps? Again you are misinterpreting what I said. I said if you drop to very low calorie diet AND AFTER THAT BINGE EAT and after binge eat go on stupid low calorie diet again. That is JoJo dieting that 99.99999% of females do..
"You can't simply eat crap, just less of it and hope for a change. It simply won't work."
Yes it will work if you are in calorie deficit. Of course if you will eat low protein, PUFA oils etc.. you will lose a lot of muscle mass, you will be more unhealthy, but YOU WILL lose weight.. THere is plenty of people doing stupid diets like good example is twinkie diet etc. or google "rice diet" people were losing crazy amounts of weight and curing diabetes by eating nothing but rice, sugar and fruit juices. Why? Because they were in calorie deficit...
So I am sorry, but you are wrong.. I would have zero issue to make bikini model from you. It just takes some serious self discipline that most people don't have which you are saying here as well. That root cause is hunger and cravings but it's not for people who have some self control.. You can have issues with insulin resistance for sure. If that is the case then you need to move your body more. 10 000 steps a day is absolute minimum. + some resistant exercise if you don't have physical job.. People today do absolutely nothing and wonder why they gain weight and are insulin resistant? That's crazy.. And if you really can't move your body like when someone has some serious health issues then they really need lowering their carb and overall calorie intake to match their calorie burned so they don't end up FAT. Pls stop looking for some miracles there are none..
Im not very invested in it as its only been from the opposite side of not gaining weight that I have struggeled with it and yes, @jiri you are right that at sufficienty undernurishment everybody will loose weight. I think the whole point of the discussion is how to loose weight without complitely ruining your health and then either regain it or just staying sick and dying early. Its very well documenteted that some people dont loose weight on very restricted calorie intake. Ive seen one study from a controlled ward with total monitoring on 24 hour basis of overweight women that maintained weight on 700 calories a day. Its easy to think its easy to loose weight when like us we do it with a certain ease. Though I dont think we really disagree that much, I think it might be a very unhealthy way to approach "looking good". I enjoy being lean and I stay at the level of visible abs but I pay zero attention to being in a calorie deificit. I have starved myself in the past and got skinnyfat, I also got lean but more unhealthy (personally) on low-carb, but with the same average intake. I just dont think we are supposed to be forced to starve ourselves to look good. A healthy body will usually (always?) adjust it's bodyfat level to what is most beneficial for that individual body, usually quite lean but for some heritages less so (inuitts dont lean out that easily f.ex as far as I know). I think the real solution is getting healthy while eating sufficiently. That might also be difficult but the forcing mentality I find a bit unhealthy (though for me and my dad it works). I'll recap. Yes you are right if you starve you will loose weight. If the object is getting leaner while staying healthy its not as easy. I grew up with my mother consistantly weighing 30% more then me while eating one third of the food. She got low metabolism for sure, but I just want to illustrate my point. Sorry again if Im not very eloquent today and seem to repeat myself
@jessica2
So your liver tests are normal, what have you tested with regards to thyroid function?
NAFLD tends to be present with any level of overweight, it can be subclinical. That's why I think consistent lecithin supplementation over a few months, say around 5g per day in addition to what you are getting from eggs etc may result in noticeable fat loss.
Also how are you getting iodine? Most get it from fortified bread or salt so iodine is often neglected when avoiding those foods and not eating seafood multiple times per week. In that situation either consuming no supplemental iodine or consuming too much can be problematic. I think it's best to take about half of the RDA of iodine when consuming no iodine fortified foods. Maybe you are now getting enough though from the eggs and dairy you are consuming?
Exercise is very important yeah. It doesn't necessarily have to be a lot but I do think it's important to do at least a little high intensity exercise regularly. I'm not a fan of gyms or cycling or even jogging as none of these things match the exercise that is suited for us evolutionarily. I'm a fan of doing sprints on grass, swimming, sports that involve short bursts of intense exercise and calisthenics.
@henrik you again are mixing many things that I didn't said.. I never said that to starve is ideal for keeping healthy body weight. All I am saying that the cause of weight gain is calorie excess. @jessica2 still don't understand this concept. There is a lot of factors why your metabolism will shut down or speed up, but the tool that your body will use to gain weight are calories. That is all I am saying. How to ideally keep excess weight off is completely different story and we can talk about that. But we have to talk about one individual specifically. Look at his health, life style, diet and everything to see where is a problem. The problem I see in 90% of people is that they don't want to change their life style. They don't want to move their body 8 hours a day. They don't want to give up their very comfortable living. They don't want to sweat. They don't want to give up watching into screens 8-12 hours a day.. People can point fingers to all directions why they are obese, but deep inside they know that how they live is not how they should live. Humans are animals and we should move our body constantly. People love to say that 300 years ago were hardly any fat people on this planet because they were not poisoned with something etc.. I mean that is laughable.. Yes we have much harder time right now to stay healthy, but again the main reason why there was no obesity is because people were moving their body all day which again is calorie thing. Now people will tell you "but I exercise 3 hours a week and it doesn't work" like really? There are no healthy people who sit on their asses most of the day like it or not.. People who smoke, drink and eat junk, but are working somewhere on a farm daily or something will be healthier than someone sitting in front of PC 12 hours a day and eating "healthy diet"...
@tim-2 "Exercise is very important yeah. It doesn't necessarily have to be a lot but I do think it's important to do at least a little high intensity exercise regularly. I'm not a fan of gyms or cycling or even jogging as none of these things match the exercise that is suited for us evolutionarily. I'm a fan of doing sprints on grass, swimming, sports that involve short bursts of intense exercise and calisthenics."
I am not a fan of "exercise" at all. I am a fan of active life style. Every single expert will tell you that it is important to move your body during the whole day and that one hour exercise a day will not somehow magically fix another 16 hours of sitting on your ass and doing nothing..
If I want to people remember one sentence it would be "comfort creates degeneration"
Every time you feel comfortable sitting in your nice chair not holding good posture etc.. your body is degenerating and vice versa every time you are doing something uncomfortable your body training to be more effective in that uncomfortable state. The body is adapting 24/7. People today chase what? Comfort.. We can see what the result is around us and how it works for people.. When you really realize this that sitting comfortably is not good for you. So you are trying to maintain good posture which is almost impossible for longer periods of the time you realize that it is easier to not sit at all. That's why if you really have to work on PC standing desk or even better treadmill instead of chairs is much better for you.. It is uncomfortable at the moment you re doing it, but long term it is not damaging like sitting.. Why nobody is talking about sitting most of the day for example? Your body can't function properly if you are sitting all the time. It is even more important than diet. I know why. Because nobody wants to change it. Talking about diet, supplements and toxins is much more easier..