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Jenny’s pros and cons of vA detox
Quote from
Alex on December 30, 2022, 12:30 pm
Quote from
Jiří on December 30, 2022, 11:04 am
@jessica2 @alexm In general choline is needed for good liver function. So it is common sense it will help liver to deal with vit A better. If the liver is less fatty it can safely store more vit A. I don't know what is the deal about this heated debate heh.. Also we need to keep in mind that the body doesn't work with just one nutrient as you can in lab.. So there will be difference if you take some lecithin or eggs or it's choline from meat or some plants etc.. But in general I don't see how choline from food can be a problem for vit A toxicity. Yes I think it ca help store more vit A from the diet in the liver. But that doesn't mean choline is a problem. The amount of vit A you ingest is a problem...
@jiri Yeah funny thing is I was never even against choline supplements and especially choline foods all I said was with the phosphatidylcholine supplement (from my symptoms and experience with it) that it seems to store more VA in liver and doesn’t speed up the detox of VA. And that it caused me liver symptoms with VA foods that I didn’t have when having them without the choline supplement hence why I came to the conclusion it’s storing more VA in the liver.
People had an issue with these two things I said and made it look like I’m against choline when I’m not lol.
Quote from
Jiří on December 30, 2022, 11:04 am
@jessica2 @alexm In general choline is needed for good liver function. So it is common sense it will help liver to deal with vit A better. If the liver is less fatty it can safely store more vit A. I don't know what is the deal about this heated debate heh.. Also we need to keep in mind that the body doesn't work with just one nutrient as you can in lab.. So there will be difference if you take some lecithin or eggs or it's choline from meat or some plants etc.. But in general I don't see how choline from food can be a problem for vit A toxicity. Yes I think it ca help store more vit A from the diet in the liver. But that doesn't mean choline is a problem. The amount of vit A you ingest is a problem...
@jiri Yeah funny thing is I was never even against choline supplements and especially choline foods all I said was with the phosphatidylcholine supplement (from my symptoms and experience with it) that it seems to store more VA in liver and doesn’t speed up the detox of VA. And that it caused me liver symptoms with VA foods that I didn’t have when having them without the choline supplement hence why I came to the conclusion it’s storing more VA in the liver.
People had an issue with these two things I said and made it look like I’m against choline when I’m not lol.
Quote from
Alex on December 30, 2022, 2:44 pm
Quote from
Jessica2 on December 30, 2022, 2:34 pm
@jiri It wasn't an argument as my fundamental question of "Where would you rather the VA go, the liver or the blood?" remains unanswered as usual when posed.
@jessica2 Preferably the liver, but in the case of someone who is getting pale stools, itchy skin ,gallbladder/liver pain then clearly the liver is not a good place for it.
Quote from
Jessica2 on December 30, 2022, 2:34 pm
@jiri It wasn't an argument as my fundamental question of "Where would you rather the VA go, the liver or the blood?" remains unanswered as usual when posed.
@jessica2 Preferably the liver, but in the case of someone who is getting pale stools, itchy skin ,gallbladder/liver pain then clearly the liver is not a good place for it.
puddleduck has reacted to this post.
Quote from
Anna on December 30, 2022, 3:25 pm
I think this argument just shows that PC like any other supplement doesn’t work for all. Just like lactoferrin has helped some and makes others feel terrible.
I think this argument just shows that PC like any other supplement doesn’t work for all. Just like lactoferrin has helped some and makes others feel terrible.
Quote from
Anna on December 31, 2022, 6:17 am
Totally agree, just talking about the supplement form as I think that could be the difference. Eggs don’t cause me symptoms but choline supplements don’t agree with me.
Totally agree, just talking about the supplement form as I think that could be the difference. Eggs don’t cause me symptoms but choline supplements don’t agree with me.
Navn, Deleted user and Andrew B have reacted to this post.
Quote from
Alex on January 4, 2023, 7:28 am
Quote from
Jessica2 on December 30, 2022, 9:33 am
@alexm But I'm making you feel like I'm the choline police?? That sounds a bit paranoid to me on a network where policing speech isn't possible or encouraged. Say what you want Alex, I don't care.
@jessica2
That comment wasn’t really in response to you in particular, I made that comment because everytime I have mentioned something that isn’t just just positive about choline supplements I have had Andrew quickly respond (usually with a gang of others) in a defensive manner as if there can’t be anything wrong with choline for VA toxicity and this has happened on several different occasions now on this forum.
On this particular occasion Anna asked me for an update on my experience with PC so I took a long time to write her an answer. Just to have Andrew quickly respond preaching all the wonderful benefits of choline and ignoring most the things I said. His comment felt like a passive aggressive invalidation of my experience somewhat. Andrew does not have any experience with choline supplements yet he seems to think he knows better in this situation.
This whole eggs and choline stuff is getting a bit preachy now on here and even seems dogmatic at times. I just want to mention I ate 3-4 eggs everyday from august 2021 -March 2022 and took phospholipid supplement from December2021to March2022 + 2 extra months in 2021 with the phospholipid supplement. And and I still developed bad VA toxciity I’m going to explain the whole story in the next post but that is another big reason why I think it stores VA and doesn’t help detox VA faster.
Quote from
Jessica2 on December 30, 2022, 9:33 am
@alexm But I'm making you feel like I'm the choline police?? That sounds a bit paranoid to me on a network where policing speech isn't possible or encouraged. Say what you want Alex, I don't care.
@jessica2
That comment wasn’t really in response to you in particular, I made that comment because everytime I have mentioned something that isn’t just just positive about choline supplements I have had Andrew quickly respond (usually with a gang of others) in a defensive manner as if there can’t be anything wrong with choline for VA toxicity and this has happened on several different occasions now on this forum.
On this particular occasion Anna asked me for an update on my experience with PC so I took a long time to write her an answer. Just to have Andrew quickly respond preaching all the wonderful benefits of choline and ignoring most the things I said. His comment felt like a passive aggressive invalidation of my experience somewhat. Andrew does not have any experience with choline supplements yet he seems to think he knows better in this situation.
This whole eggs and choline stuff is getting a bit preachy now on here and even seems dogmatic at times. I just want to mention I ate 3-4 eggs everyday from august 2021 -March 2022 and took phospholipid supplement from December2021to March2022 + 2 extra months in 2021 with the phospholipid supplement. And and I still developed bad VA toxciity I’m going to explain the whole story in the next post but that is another big reason why I think it stores VA and doesn’t help detox VA faster.
Jenny, puddleduck and 2 other users have reacted to this post.
Quote from
Jenny on January 4, 2023, 10:30 am
It’s really important to have different opinions on this. It’s all theory. After being on the vA detox diet for 2 years (end 2018 - end 2020) I got truly disastrous and worrying liver test results, ALT of 160 and doubled triglycerides, which I now know are exactly those one would expect for choline deficiency. I was only eating at best 50% of the RDA of choline and menopausal and stressed (both increase dietary need). Choline deficiency is my current best fit explanation for these results (other suggestions always welcome). This is why I’ve been so interested in the choline work as it’s ticked a lot of boxes for me. I think it’s not a simple black and white issue though. I’m just trying to get the RDA now and improve my liver health. ALT down from 160 to 90, but this is still a way out of normal range.
There are up sides and down sides of all foods and supplements. For example, PC may not suit people with raised PLA2 but CDP-choline may help. People with low cholinesterase may find choline supplements unhelpful. I’m very wary of all supplements nowadays, preferring to eat nutrient dense food.
It’s really important that we keep an open discussion going about all topics and experiences. Grant’s forum is great for this! From my experience I would say that having enough choline for liver health (and cellular health in general) is very important and that’s what my reading suggests as well. Many liver detox experts say this and the experimental data for causing and then improving NAFLD using choline deficiency and then supplementation seems pretty water tight. Having done a very low choline diet for 2 years, I wouldn’t recommend it for liver health. However, this is not to say that for some people other reactions don’t occur (I’ve mentioned some possible negatives above and elsewhere). People say Lutein is healthy but for me it’s a disaster! Individual differences.
It’s really important to have different opinions on this. It’s all theory. After being on the vA detox diet for 2 years (end 2018 - end 2020) I got truly disastrous and worrying liver test results, ALT of 160 and doubled triglycerides, which I now know are exactly those one would expect for choline deficiency. I was only eating at best 50% of the RDA of choline and menopausal and stressed (both increase dietary need). Choline deficiency is my current best fit explanation for these results (other suggestions always welcome). This is why I’ve been so interested in the choline work as it’s ticked a lot of boxes for me. I think it’s not a simple black and white issue though. I’m just trying to get the RDA now and improve my liver health. ALT down from 160 to 90, but this is still a way out of normal range.
There are up sides and down sides of all foods and supplements. For example, PC may not suit people with raised PLA2 but CDP-choline may help. People with low cholinesterase may find choline supplements unhelpful. I’m very wary of all supplements nowadays, preferring to eat nutrient dense food.
It’s really important that we keep an open discussion going about all topics and experiences. Grant’s forum is great for this! From my experience I would say that having enough choline for liver health (and cellular health in general) is very important and that’s what my reading suggests as well. Many liver detox experts say this and the experimental data for causing and then improving NAFLD using choline deficiency and then supplementation seems pretty water tight. Having done a very low choline diet for 2 years, I wouldn’t recommend it for liver health. However, this is not to say that for some people other reactions don’t occur (I’ve mentioned some possible negatives above and elsewhere). People say Lutein is healthy but for me it’s a disaster! Individual differences.
puddleduck, Luisa and 3 other users have reacted to this post.
puddleduckLuisakathy55woodAndrew BAnna
Quote from
Luisa on January 4, 2023, 11:05 am
I personally think getting choline from food sources is best, I ended up stopping the sunflower lecithin supplement, it didn't agree with me, it was causing sleep issues and also I think it might have contributed to a worsening of SIBO issues. It's possible the little bits of vitamin A and other nutrients in eggs are helping with choline utilization and/or to balance microbiome in the Gut for me.
We all have different microbiome, genetics and issues at play, nutrients have a huge impact on the microbiome and this is huge for a lot of people. I definitely don't think there is a one size fits all, for example I'm highly sensitive to inulin fiber, I tested this by trying out the supplement alone, before I thought this was a reaction just caused by oxalates. I think this is going to be a process of self discovery for everyone but the experiences of each one will help everyone on their own self discovery process.
I personally think getting choline from food sources is best, I ended up stopping the sunflower lecithin supplement, it didn't agree with me, it was causing sleep issues and also I think it might have contributed to a worsening of SIBO issues. It's possible the little bits of vitamin A and other nutrients in eggs are helping with choline utilization and/or to balance microbiome in the Gut for me.
We all have different microbiome, genetics and issues at play, nutrients have a huge impact on the microbiome and this is huge for a lot of people. I definitely don't think there is a one size fits all, for example I'm highly sensitive to inulin fiber, I tested this by trying out the supplement alone, before I thought this was a reaction just caused by oxalates. I think this is going to be a process of self discovery for everyone but the experiences of each one will help everyone on their own self discovery process.
Jenny and Andrew B have reacted to this post.
Quote from
Jenny on January 5, 2023, 11:49 am
Well said @luisa
Well said @luisa
Luisa and Andrew B have reacted to this post.
Quote from
Alex on January 11, 2023, 11:30 am
Reposting because messed up dates
Reposting because messed up dates
Quote from
Alex on January 11, 2023, 12:52 pm
Reposting
Reposting
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