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Jenny’s pros and cons of vA detox
Phosphatidylcholine and choline in eggs tend to reduce symptoms of leakiness especially done over say 6 months. It gives the appearance you may be detoxing less but I really do not think that this is the case. Storing Vitamin A in the liver as a result of 250-1,000 IUs in eggs per day is very unlikely given a 62 year old man on 4,000 IUs managed a very strong detox.
Choline generally improves neurotransmitter and anxiety issues. I'm much calmer now after 8 months on eggs. Parasympathetic activity is improved. Digestion much much improved. Some people although low in choline will have issues with high acetylcholine and cholinesterase issues and this may show up as anxiety and other problems. A very gradual approach is needed whilst avoiding things like nightshades. @jaj has looked into these issues and may have commented elsewhere.
Dr. Paul Eck recommended lecithin years ago if one needed to slow down the elimination of toxic metals. However, we do not find that adding lecithin to one’s development program slows toxic metal elimination. It can reduce some symptoms of toxic metal elimination, especially anxiety.
@jessica2 thanks for sharing your thoughts on this topic recently. It’s been a while since I’ve been on the network, but I remember that Vitamin E was also discussed as “shoving vA into the liver.” Do you have an opinion on that one? How about any other substance that Dr. Smith says does this?
@margo I started eating sunflower seeds blended with water to form a milk of sorts about 8 months ago (previously it was brazil nuts but then I started getting selenium from the eggs). A little olive oil, parsnips and eggs providing my top 4 sources. I think Vitamin E might help cell membrane health along with choline and phospholipids. I'm nearly at RDA of 15 mgs a day. In the context of my overall diet it's still quite a small part of my diet. It's definitely not shoving vit A into the liver. My strong detox continues plus lots of healing. The choline always wins.
@jessica2
The thing is I’m referring to my experience with the phosphatidylcholine supplement and not choline from foods so they probably work differently. Although I do get bad gallbladder attacks from eggs but I don’t think that’s not related to choline.
If you think stools switching from yellow to pale stools, itchy skin, gallbladder/liver pain, red half moons on nails getting darker and more prominent is a sign I’m detoxing more VA or it’s helping me detox VA faster it isn’t to me, it’s a sign my liver is struggling to cope with VA or other toxins and more is getting stored. With my enemas I’m get much less bile output when I’m using more PC, and I stop seeing bad stuff coming out from the enemas and stop feeling good from the enemas anymore.
If I have something like ghee with a bile acids supplement I really don’t feel good at all, it’s the same with if I have it with the PC.
If you read my post fully I don’t even say PC is a bad thing, I mention the positives about it too and said it can be helpful in this process but it seems like I’m not allowed to mention anything negative about choline without the choline police coming after me. There’s no need to get dogmatic about this stuff, most things usually have pros and cons.
Quote from Jessica2 on December 30, 2022, 6:05 am@alexm The problem with the theory that choline stores VA in the liver is that choline does PREVENT and REDUCE fatty liver. This isn't even really a debate in nutrition much anymore. They have had to add choline to long term feeding tube patients to prevent fatty liver. If it "stores VA" it would make fatty liver worse. This just isn't the case, and we know this. I and Andrew have cited several studies here highlighting this fact. As I've often posed this question before I will do it again here, as I've never received a good answer from anyone: If choline does indeed take VA to the liver, (I can agree it does actually, but not that it "stores" it indefinitely) and that is "bad" where would you rather have it instead, floating around in blood and peripheral tissue causing damage? The liver is the proper place for it to be detoxified, and in a low VA diet, you wouldn't be storing a ton anyways, and the liver can then do its function of detoxifying and ridding of retinols in bile like it is supposed to.
@jessica2
Yeah but just because the choline helps with fatty liver that doesn’t then mean it helps remove VA. And I think one is able to have VA toxicity without having fatty liver and visa Versa I don’t think they’re mutually exclusive to each other.
Whatever the choline is doing it does something negative when I take it with VA foods but without the PC choline I can have these foods no issues.
The study that showed the body downregulated bile acid production in response to dietary Vit A and Vit D intake makes sense. So when I had the bile acid supplement or PC and had a bad reaction after foods like ghee, or high carotenoid foods compared to when I had them without the supplements Hence why I come to the conclusion more is getting stored and stored in the liver.
I wouldn’t say storing more in the liver is a bad thing if I wasn’t getting increased pale stools, itchy skin, gallbladder pain, red lines on nails, dry mouth, red hands after taking it with VA foods.
Quote from Jessica2 on December 30, 2022, 9:07 am@alexm Oh for goodness sakes calm down. There's no way I can stop you talking about whatever you want on this forum and I don't want to. I can't speak to your symptoms but I read your whole post the only part I'm taking issue with is the idea that choline is storing VA in your liver indefinitely. Unless your VA intake is high and it cannot get to the detoxification process for some reason? I'm just saying there's no need to fear that choline is indefinitely storing VA in your liver because it's shown to reduce fatty liver.
I was perfectly calm in that post not sure what the problem was? If anyone it was you who wasn’t being calm it was you in your original reply to my experience with the PC.
I don’t fear choline at all or I wouldn’t even take the supplement at all, I’m just saying the impression I get from the PC supplement that it is storing more VA and doesn’t help detox VA faster. Seems to be affecting bile production negatively if I am getting pale stools, itchy skin liver pain at times from taking it. Not sure what’s so bad about me saying that.
Quote from Jessica2 on December 30, 2022, 9:27 am@alexm why would you try it with "high VA" foods though? What's the logic of that?
Well according to you it shouldn’t be a problem as PC doesn’t store VA in the liver. Yes I think I made a mistake saying high VA but ghee which is a very strong yellow I did not feel good with taking the PC where as I have no issues taking it without. Same thing happened when I had it with Rutagaba or yogurt. (I know google says rutagaba is low VA but it’s not I react to it just as badly as carrots and it is a very strong dark yellow colour)
Quote from Jessica2 on December 30, 2022, 10:31 am@alexm I certainly DON'T say high VA is no problem with choline. That is another mischaracterization of my words.
@jessica2
Huh never said you said that, I said you hold the view that phosphatidylcholine doesn’t store VA in the liver as if it did then it wouldn’t reverse fatty liver.
I also said I made a mistake in the original post saying I took PC with “high” VA foods in the first place. Ghee and yogurt I don’t think are that high in VA.
@jessica2 @alexm In general choline is needed for good liver function. So it is common sense it will help liver to deal with vit A better. If the liver is less fatty it can safely store more vit A. I don't know what is the deal about this heated debate heh.. Also we need to keep in mind that the body doesn't work with just one nutrient as you can in lab.. So there will be difference if you take some lecithin or eggs or it's choline from meat or some plants etc.. But in general I don't see how choline from food can be a problem for vit A toxicity. Yes I think it ca help store more vit A from the diet in the liver. But that doesn't mean choline is a problem. The amount of vit A you ingest is a problem...