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Jenny’s pros and cons of vA detox
Yes it’s a deep hole! I’ve been interested in this for a long time. Something about vA toxicity/detox upsets the sulphur pathway. Methylation is linked to transsulphuration (sulphur pathway) via the CBS gene. There are all sorts of things that can go amiss. VA upregulates GNMT (methylation) and increases homocysteine. CDO enzyme is slowed by TNF-alpha. SUOX enzyme slowed by lack of molybdenum or lack of heme (a real issue for some). All sorts of things can go wrong but I’ve noticed that many people with vA toxicity are sulphur intolerant. Does this mean they should avoid sulphur. NO. It’s the blocked pathway that’s the issue. We desperately need sulphate (the end product).
Yes it’s a deep hole! I’ve been interested in this for a long time. Something about vA toxicity/detox upsets the sulphur pathway. Methylation is linked to transsulphuration (sulphur pathway) via the CBS gene. There are all sorts of things that can go amiss. VA upregulates GNMT (methylation) and increases homocysteine. CDO enzyme is slowed by TNF-alpha. SUOX enzyme slowed by lack of molybdenum or lack of heme (a real issue for some). All sorts of things can go wrong but I’ve noticed that many people with vA toxicity are sulphur intolerant. Does this mean they should avoid sulphur. NO. It’s the blocked pathway that’s the issue. We desperately need sulphate (the end product).
Quote from Jenny on December 27, 2022, 4:10 amI don’t know whether my seizures are ongoing. I’ve only had two and they were 5 months apart. I really hope not. I thought after the first seizure I’d addressed enough issues to make it a one off but I’d missed out two vital areas - glutamate in food and cholinesterase inhibitors. I’m now on a low glutamate diet and a low nightshade diet (I was eating potatoes). Avoiding MSG and free glutamate is a lot trickier than you might think. Nightshades are the main cholinesterase inhibitor that we eat. I also avoid high lutein foods as they bring on conjunctivitis so I assume are not doing me any good. This makes my diet very limited again which is not the way I want to go at all. I’ve had a lot of help from a vA detox person with long running glutamate sensitivity (interestingly her sensitivity has got worse on the vA detox).
I suspect that my anxiety has always been due to an issue in the glutamate-GABA pathway. I suspect that over production of porphyrins has been an issue for me that has been worsened by the vA detox and also by covid (see Steven Rochlitz work). Porphyrins block GABA receptors and thus cause anxiety. Stress and infection also mess up this pathway, as does B6 and magnesium deficiency. Multiple issues can worsen this pathway. I’d had a lot of stress before first seizure (just moved house) and a high glutamate meal with potato, before second seizure. I think the seizures are a more extreme dysfunction of this pathway (with a trigger - I’m working on this but suspect low blood pressure/hypoxia) which was already working poorly. Seizures are common in people who accumulate porphyrins (Steven Rochlitz). Porphyrin accumulation is common not rare, according to people in the field.
The diet detailed in the above comment was eaten for around 2.5 years (Oct 2018-March 2021). At the end of 2020 I had really concerning liver results (extremely high ALT, high GGT and also doubled triglycerides). Also my fingernails were deteriorating and my anxiety was sky high. However, my vA toxicity symptoms had completely gone. Therefore, I eventually decided (somewhere around March - April 2021) to widen my diet to include more variety and nutrient dense foods, as my nutritional therapy training suggested, rather than the limited selection detailed above. I thought it likely that my major issue was no longer vA toxicity, but was deficiencies induced by the detox or the limited diet. However, I never introduced the high vA foods and my intake for vA was still under the RDA. I did not add in a lot of eggs although I no longer totally excluded them after researching how essential choline is for healthy bile (and listening to various detox experts too). I did not re do the liver tests so I don’t know if widening my diet resolved these but my fingernails and anxiety did not improve, so something was STILL missing from my understanding. This led me to research porphyria. It also led me to take Andrew Baird very seriously when he started talking about choline. I’m a post menopausal women with heterozygous PEMT SNPs, both facts that reduce endogenous production of choline and therefore push reliance onto diet. I was eating less than half the RDA of choline for several years. Really NOT good imo. I now suspect that choline deficiency caused my worrying liver results in 2020. I suspect this has led to below par cell membranes and possibly worsened my susceptibility to seizures as cell membrane health is fundamental.
I don’t know if my current ‘best fit’ conclusions are correct. I’m very open to new information. However, I currently think that the vA detox in ME has corrected many health issues and caused a whole bunch more. I would like to fully understand what has happened so we can use this information to prevent other people suffering. I believe in its present form the vA detox diet (it may depend on particular diet chosen) can be dangerous for SOME people, yet lowering vA is essential. A conundrum.
@jaj thank you for sharing. I feel like hypoxia/not getting enough oxygen is my worse head symptom rn. I feel it when I wake up and mostly when I am inside the house, this dizziness. I feel best when I am active and outside or doing breathing exercises. I often thought it was low potassium triggering this causing a weak diaphragm, even though I do core exercises daily and feel strong in this region but I also notice how this region gets tight and I shallow breathe, esp. when pushing the detox too hard which from what I understand could block potassium channels. Having lots of eye twitches too rn but my body still does not like to use mag spray, which suggests to me some pathway could be blocked. I'm curious what your thoughts are on potassium or this channel being blocked and if there could be a connection to it and the marmite you were eating, which I believe is very salty.
I've also recently discovered that ginger is supposed to help lower glutamate, has anyone heard this or experimented with this? I've decided to start drinking ginger tea again.
@audrey have you tried nitrates like iceberg lettuce, arugula/rocket in small amounts, pomegranates or beetroot (oxalic acid may be too high for some) ? I regularly eat iceberg lettuce for the nitric oxide benefit. I believe also some vitamin C in food helps the conversion too.
Hi @audrey I’m sorry to hear about your hypoxia symptom, that doesn’t sound fun. Have you looked into B1 deficiency? Elliot Overton has good videos on this and there are articles on Hormones Matter website. People with magnesium intolerance can have low B1. The vA detox seems to induce a B1 deficiency. You may have already looked into this but your comment rang bells for me.
I’ve never had much success with adding potassium so i do think the blocked receptors theory could be correct because adding more when receptors blocked doesn’t help, but I haven’t looked at in depth. I gave up Marmite a year ago 😞 so that’s not involved with current issues. I couldn’t tolerate now but I used to eat loads with no issues.
I’d seen about ginger being helpful on a list somewhere but thanks for posting paper. I do use quite a bit of ginger so I’ll continue with that.
Edit: I don’t worry about salt and am now sometimes adding to drinking water because I’ve discovered my blood pressure is currently very much on the low side. Datis Kharrazian in his book ‘why isn’t my brain working’ says anything more than 10 points lower than 120/80 is an issue for the brain (he recommends salting water). Autonomic dysfunction (which I definitely have) can cause postural hypotension too which drops it even further. I do wonder if lack of oxygen to brain triggered my seizures. The first one was after a very vaso dilating magnesium bath which could have caused a BP drop. Have you looked at your blood pressure?
Quote from Andrew B on December 29, 2022, 4:08 am@audrey have you tried nitrates like iceberg lettuce, arugula/rocket in small amounts, pomegranates or beetroot (oxalic acid may be too high for some) ? I regularly eat iceberg lettuce for the nitric oxide benefit. I believe also some vitamin C in food helps the conversion too.
Hi @andrew-b Ah, so that is what the iceberg lettuce is for, I thought it was for the extra K... I do eat it and I notice it helps me to breathe better through my nasal passages. I have also added beets back in, I love beets but I always thought I was sensitive for oxalates, but maybe when I thought that it was the vitamin A I was sensitive for? Not sure, but I am still having trouble with my thumbs and palms, I feel like I have glass under the skin and my thumb joint is very painful. I thought when I detoxed too fast a few weeks back my body used my thumb joint as a 'safe' storage place.
Quote from Jenny on December 29, 2022, 5:22 amHi @audrey I’m sorry to hear about your hypoxia symptom, that doesn’t sound fun. Have you looked into B1 deficiency? Elliot Overton has good videos on this and there are articles on Hormones Matter website. People with magnesium intolerance can have low B1. The vA detox seems to induce a B1 deficiency. You may have already looked into this but your comment rang bells for me.
I’ve never had much success with adding potassium so i do think the blocked receptors theory could be correct because adding more when receptors blocked doesn’t help, but I haven’t looked at in depth. I gave up Marmite a year ago
so that’s not involved with current issues. I couldn’t tolerate now but I used to eat loads with no issues.
I’d seen about ginger being helpful on a list somewhere but thanks for posting paper. I do use quite a bit of ginger so I’ll continue with that.
Edit: I don’t worry about salt and am now sometimes adding to drinking water because I’ve discovered my blood pressure is currently very much on the low side. Datis Kharrazian in his book ‘why isn’t my brain working’ says anything more than 10 points lower than 120/80 is an issue for the brain (he recommends salting water). Autonomic dysfunction (which I definitely have) can cause postural hypotension too which drops it even further. I do wonder if lack of oxygen to brain triggered my seizures. The first one was after a very vaso dilating magnesium bath which could have caused a BP drop. Have you looked at your blood pressure?
Hi @jaj, yes I am familiar with Elliot Overton and I am taking B1 again, I had stoipped taking it bc of something that GS said, but I do feel much better when I take it, thanks for the suggestion. Haven't tested blood pressure, maybe I should... I have a weird relationship with salt, I crave it but if I have too much it seems to throw off other things, and not too long ago I think I had a bit too much salt and had an adrenal surge at night which has not happened to me for a few years. I often connect it to overdoing the salt. Do you think it could be that I am not drinking enough water? I tend to only drink when I am thirsty these days. Some things are going well whilst new things are popping up. The balance feels tricky sometimes!
@audrey I’m personally a fan of drinking plenty of water. I think that porphyrins are an issue for me and porphyrins expert Steven Rochlitz says drink plenty to dilute them. Add some salt to water but it’s a tricky balance because don’t want too much. I’m following his advice (and not Smith, who I’ve completely lost trust in) because I feel a lot better when I drink 2-3litres of water and a lot worse when I don’t. Both my seizures occurred on days I hadn’t drunk much so I’m seeing it as essential atm. Karen Hurd also advises plenty of water. This may not work for everyone but seems to be the best for me. Dilute and excrete!
Quote from Anna on December 27, 2022, 9:04 amAny further discoveries? @alexm I’ve noticed the exact same thing regarding stool color and choline supplements.
@anna-3 I’ve used 3/4 of the Thorne phosphadtiyl Chlolime bottle of 60, if anyone is gonna buy a choline supplement I would buy this one it’s the most high quality I’ve tried for sure. I tried sunflower letchin in the past and it didn’t have a nice smell and I know sunflower oil isn’t good for us. It should be taken with SAM-E (if one isn’t sensitive to methyl donors) which I added in a few days after starting it and it made it work better than without it. But SAM-E can also be a disaster if one has low potassium levels and weak adrenals or more toxic. Most of the time I wouldn’t need more than a few drops out of the soft gel so I would advise do this then wrap it up in cling film and put in fridge. When you said on another post you feel more copper dumping symptoms from choline I don’t think that is from copper dumping I think it is from too much choline which can cause neurotransmitter issues and anxiety, I used to have these issues when I tried it 2 years ago.
My impressions are still the same, it doesn’t seem helpful for detoxing VA and seems to store more VA. When I’ve tried it with high VA foods I’ve felt terrible. Like something toxic is building up in the blood and brain maybe that’s to do with TMAO I’m not sure. Red half moons on my nail which indicate liver issues get worse and more prominent when taking it especially if I take more, same with the gallbladder pain, itchy scalp skin and pale stools if I took more PC then that would happen more.
That being said it does seem good for slowing things down and supporting the body, nourishing the adrenals (it’s stops the oxidation of adrenaline) “Oxidation of adrenalin results in the formation of adrenochrome – a toxic hormone that causes fear, anxiety, and can even cause psychosis.”, when I first started it it made my skin look (more youthful but that stopped happening), supporting cell membrane fluidity, methylation support, general liver support. It can be great for reducing anxiety and stress and supports the BHMT pathway which can be depleted by stress.
I do think it can be helpful in small doses , to give the body support and make the detox less harmful but I don’t agree it speeds up the process and detoxes more VA. There are some days where I am craving it but that’s usually on days where I have overdone things. Taking it as a supplement I get completely different benefits that I don’t get from choline containing foods like meat and eggs. So I do think the two are different.
I read this also “Dr. Paul Eck recommended lecithin years ago if one needed to slow down the elimination of toxic metals.” And I get the same impression as him. Dr Eck who pioneered and started the whole Hair mineral test movement.
I have now found 3 supplements that’s are really helping the detox and improving things fast for me Mega IGG 200 Immunoglobin supplement (rebuilds the mucosal barrier of the gut, gallbladder, bile ducts) binds to environmental toxins, contains transferrin. MCP - modified citrus pectin a unique binder that binds to stuff in the blood and not just the gut like other binders and doesn’t deplete nutrients and minerals like other binders do, and daily coffee enemas. I think the combo of these three things speeds up the process a lot. You can also increase the fat intake on this approach as it will make stronger bile dumps in the enemas and I don’t get any signs of VA being stored as I’m getting yellow stools and not pale with the higher fat I’m doing at the moment. Thiamine HCL is also really helpful and so is low dose copper with glycine.