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Luke's Log & Information
Thank you so much to everyone that has commented. I plan on replying and giving a more detailed progress report in the near future, but wanted to go ahead and give an update on something that has been pretty dramatic for me. Pigmentation and hair growth is returning full force roughly 2 months into no/low VitA diet (I avoid VitA like the plague now and essentially never cheat). The only other change to diet/lifestyle I have adopted other than low VitA is a orthomolecular approach to supplementing Vitamin C (20Gish per day) which has made me feel so much better. I have supplemented Niacin off and on per orthomolecular approach for years with good results, but never Vitamin C until now because getting 20G of Vitamin C is much more difficult than 3G of niacin.
Yes, I know one of the pictures has greater exposure, but this doesn't minimize the return of pigmentation. So much so that a friend asked if I dyed my hair. Since I started mega dosing Vitamin A late 2020/early 2021, my looks took a heavy toll which has plunged confidence. This diet is definitely working, and the toxicity of Vitamin A is absolutely validated for me. Looking forward to posting a more thorough update in the future.
First Picture: August 22
Second Picture: October 12
1 haircut between pictures.
@orion I supplement with pure Ascorbic Acid powder (more research than buffered, and seems to be preferred by top Vitamin C docs). I use Now Brand. I think the quantity is a pound. I have been doing 4, 5G doses throughout the day. Definitely something to it. Effect on ceruloplasmin and copper metabolization is way overstated/misunderstood IMO. Studies on excess antioxidants are also pretty worthless. Vitamin C may work as a prooxidant at really high doses, but I don't think it is necessarily a bad thing.
Quote from Luke on October 14, 2021, 11:15 am@orion I supplement with pure Ascorbic Acid powder (more research than buffered, and seems to be preferred by top Vitamin C docs). I use Now Brand. I think the quantity is a pound. I have been doing 4, 5G doses throughout the day. Definitely something to it. Effect on ceruloplasmin and copper metabolization is way overstated/misunderstood IMO. Studies on excess antioxidants are also pretty worthless. Vitamin C may work as a prooxidant at really high doses, but I don't think it is necessarily a bad thing.
What do you think about the reactivity of ascorbic acid in the presence of heavy metals (what Ray Pete quotes)? Also, I'm not sure that inhibiting ALDH is a good thing.
@daniil This is such a nuanced and debated topic, but I believe the research stacks in favor of ascorbic acid. Lots of debate on redox, iron, copper, ceruloplasmin, and ascorbic acid. The research in general shows ascorbic acid is protective against iron overload, copper imbalance, and oxidative damage from heavy metals. I tend to lean towards the interpretations of Doris Loh regarding Vitamin C. High ceruloplasmin is often present in pathological states, and high ceruloplasmin in general is not necessarily a good thing. I believe Vitamin C is a catalyst, and excess things like zinc or molybdenum are some of the true inhibitors of copper activity in the body (after all some animals can make up to 10g of ascorbic acid endogenously per day). That is about the only thing I agree with Morley Robbins on. According to Morley Robbins, the amount of Vitamin C I am ingesting should be making my copper/ceruloplasmin tank, but my pigmentation in hair is only getting darker. Also, I think there is just too many positive testimonials and research studies on Vitamin C to discount. In fact, taking a look at (http://www.doctoryourself.com/) shows its immense capacity for healing in pathological states. I think the real culprit in anemia/iron dysregulation, copper dysregulation, etc. is Toxin A, oxalates (lots of research on this), PUFA, crazy sulphur sources like MSM, stress, halides, chemicals, deficiencies in bio available minerals, etc. I don't believe there is any compelling evidence to suggest Vitamin C disrupts copper or iron metabolism (studies on ceruloplasmin are weak at best). In fact, I think it is the opposite. I think Vitamin C makes copper derivatives more bioavailable to the cell and speeds up the entire process, which is why it probably is a smart idea to make sure you are getting enough copper while taking large amounts of C.
I did not know ascorbic acid inhibits ALDH. I found this that seems to indicate the opposite (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9706998/), but would love to see any interesting articles you may have found. Also, I may recall a study where ascorbic acid almost completely counteracted the toxicity of jewfish liver oil administered to rats, but need to hunt it down in my notes.
Quote from Luke on October 14, 2021, 12:33 pm@daniil This is such a nuanced and debated topic, but I believe the research stacks in favor of ascorbic acid. Lots of debate on redox, iron, copper, ceruloplasmin, and ascorbic acid. The research in general shows ascorbic acid is protective against iron overload, copper imbalance, and oxidative damage from heavy metals. I tend to lean towards the interpretations of Doris Loh regarding Vitamin C. High ceruloplasmin is often present in pathological states, and high ceruloplasmin in general is not necessarily a good thing. I believe Vitamin C is a catalyst, and excess things like zinc or molybdenum are some of the true inhibitors of copper activity in the body (after all some animals can make up to 10g of ascorbic acid endogenously per day). That is about the only thing I agree with Morley Robbins on. According to Morley Robbins, the amount of Vitamin C I am ingesting should be making my copper/ceruloplasmin tank, but my pigmentation in hair is only getting darker. Also, I think there is just too many positive testimonials and research studies on Vitamin C to discount. In fact, taking a look at (http://www.doctoryourself.com/) shows its immense capacity for healing in pathological states. I think the real culprit in anemia/iron dysregulation, copper dysregulation, etc. is Toxin A, oxalates (lots of research on this), PUFA, crazy sulphur sources like MSM, stress, halides, chemicals, deficiencies in bio available minerals, etc. I don't believe there is any compelling evidence to suggest Vitamin C disrupts copper or iron metabolism (studies on ceruloplasmin are weak at best). In fact, I think it is the opposite. I think Vitamin C makes copper derivatives more bioavailable to the cell and speeds up the entire process, which is why it probably is a smart idea to make sure you are getting enough copper while taking large amounts of C.
I did not know ascorbic acid inhibits ALDH. I found this that seems to indicate the opposite (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9706998/), but would love to see any interesting articles you may have found. Also, I may recall a study where ascorbic acid almost completely counteracted the toxicity of jewfish liver oil administered to rats, but need to hunt it down in my notes.
https://ggenereux.blog/discussion/topic/influence-of-food-on-adh-and-aldh-activity/?part=1
In this thread, the third link is a study where VC suppressed the activity of ALDH. I wonder how it happened that in vivo and in vitro effects are opposite.
Also Grant said something about the fact that VC slows down the conversion to retinoic acid. Grant doesn't seem to be a fan of VC ssupplements
Hi @luke thanks for your interesting post on your 20g dosing of vC. For the first year of my detox (end 2018 to end 2019) I took high dose vC but 5g rather than 20g, so not as high as you. I then stopped taking vC when the work discovering the slowing of ALDH was found. Your paper showing an opposite effect in guinea pigs is interesting.
After stopping the high dose vC several strange symptoms that had developed in that first year went away and I started to loose weight. Fast unexplained weight gain was my main vA toxicity symptoms so I took the weight reduction as a reversing of toxicity, rather than a bad thing. The strange symptoms that reversed were edema and extreme difficulties walking up even the smallest incline (very worrying).
In hindsight my current theory is that the vC slowed ALDH and caused a build up of aldehydes. I was also drinking reasonable amounts of alcohol at this time too. Aldehydes deplete B1 and many describe B1 deficiency going hand in hand with vA toxicity. I think my symptoms were B1 deficiency symptoms (the beginnings of wet beri beri). At the time I thought it was something to do with iron. I don’t know which is correct. I currently think that the 5g of vC was not helpful to me during that first year of the detox. I think it slowed detox and led to a build up of aldehydes in my system (current theory).
However, as you say there is much work on vC being helpful. I now take a much smaller amount 100mg-250mg. The Trying Low Oxalate group recommend no more than 250mg as some people are endogenous oxalate makers. This is why I’ve settled on this amount. Earlier this year I took a larger amount. I was in fact trying to slow down the detox as I’d added a lot of soluble fibre and wasn’t feeling well (I now think it wasn’t detox at all but I was eating too many biogenic amines - long story). I added several grams of vC as I presumed this was fairly harmless. Wrong. I got excruciating kidney pain - I mean really bad ‘keep me awake all night’ pain. I’d never had such a reaction to vitamin C before. The oxalate group suggested it was something to do with copper and/or oxalates. I thought maybe I was detoxing copper through kidneys or my body was now turning vC into oxalates. I don’t know. I’ve not repeated the experiment!!
All in all I’ve come to the conclusion that some vC on the vA detox is helpful but too much could have negative effects. However, as always these are just my current thoughts and theories. I’m always learning new information and am very open to understanding things in a different way.
High doses will chelate copper from the body overtime. Look at all promoters of high dose vit C. They all have white hair, low melanin in the skin.. I wouldn't take more than 1g a day long term. High doses only in short cycles if you have some virus or something..
This is a fascinating discussion! I have been in Doris Loh camp and also read earlier works on VC benefits. But I also heard those here who say the opposite. I experimented with lowering the dose from 8000 mg to 2000mg. At this point I can say without a shadow of a doubt that on 2000mg I get blood blisters in my mouth and fatigue. 8000mg seems to increase my tinnitus. So I am still trying to find the middle ground and at present trying 4000mg to see what happens.
Quote from Beata on October 15, 2021, 2:10 amThis is a fascinating discussion! I have been in Doris Loh camp and also read earlier works on VC benefits. But I also heard those here who say the opposite. I experimented with lowering the dose from 8000 mg to 2000mg. At this point I can say without a shadow of a doubt that on 2000mg I get blood blisters in my mouth and fatigue. 8000mg seems to increase my tinnitus. So I am still trying to find the middle ground and at present trying 4000mg to see what happens.
Deficiency of B2 and B12 can also cause mouth ulcers