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More recent scientific studies suggesting a role for Vitamin A
Quote from Janelle525 on August 28, 2024, 4:55 pm@jessica2
I seem smarter because you misunderstood me. I never said Grant's diet is the diet for everyone to heal on I even just said that to Alex. Whittling down your diet to 2 or 3 things I think is way too extreme and that is why I disagree with carnivore. I think one can overdo meat because of it's iron content and saturated fat content. I won't poo poo the theory. The theory is vitamin A can be absolutely toxic and if it does turn out we need some it's a very small amount. That's what I will never poo poo even if the diet itself is causing side effects for me. And yes we do need to educate about cod liver oil and supps and accutane and liver and fortified dairy/high fat dairy.
Janelle, I am not familiar with your biography. How long have you eaten low vitamin A? Why did you start low vitamin A? Did you have any symptoms before you started? After? Now?
Quote from Jalee on August 28, 2024, 4:59 pmI didn't misunderstand you, nor did Alex. You have an agenda because of your belief. You'd never talk about the negative effects even if they happen to you, because to you that's "poo-pooing" something you believe in. Its good to admit I guess.
I think you did misunderstand her. In your effort to pin her down you refused to cut her slack. Perhaps this post will help you grok the dogma better. Please not it is not belabored metabolic minutiae requiring huge jumps through hoops. It is clear and concise. It explains why so many on LYL are having such good results.
Quote from Joe on August 28, 2024, 10:17 pmQuote from Alex on August 28, 2024, 1:12 pmQuote from Joe on August 28, 2024, 12:52 pmQuote from Alex on August 28, 2024, 12:03 pmQuote from Janelle525 on August 28, 2024, 11:46 amYou can find a ton of evidence that vitamin A is GOOD. Does that mean it is all factual information? Hardly. Science is so hijacked. You can manipulate findings easily. What is more interesting are papers revealing the HARM because those scientists are not going to get front page of any science journal.
I mean yeah clearly too much is bad doesn't mean we don't need it though, from doing the mineral balancing stuff it is clear to me that it is needed, just people aren't metabolising it correctly due to various factors or they do have actual toxicity in Vitamin A.
Then how do you explain that Grant did not go blind 9 years ago and die 8 years ago and is in physically better shape than anyone you know at his age?
@joe I'm tired of this argument... Sorry you see things in such black and white terms, maybe because there are other explanations for why this happened.
Was gonna post this on RP forum a while ago but I'll post it here:
I also think viewing Vitamin A only as a toxin is a poor ideology too.
Just because your health issues improved on a low vitamin A diet and just because Grant has been on a low vitamin A diet for 10 years and fixed his health issues neither of those automatically mean Vitamin A is only a toxin.
Maybe you weren’t metabolising the Vit A properly due to your ALDH being inhibited for some reason (lots of things do this), maybe you were toxic in Vit A which slowed down your bile production and going on a low vitamin A diet fixed that issue, maybe having vitamin A toxicity caused you to have a functional deficiency in Vitamin A at the same time and going low vit A made the stored vitamin A more bioavailable , maybe there was a source of glyphosate in your diet or some other pesticide and this inhibited the catabolism of vitamin A, maybe you had mineral deficiencies or metal toxicities causing issues with Vitamin A metabolism, maybe low vitamin A is an adaptive way for your body to operate without vitamin A consumption and there are some benefits to this, maybe you had some pathogen or mold inhibiting your ALDH, there are a lot of possibilities for as to why Vitamin A was causing people issues but I don’t see the Vitamin A is a toxin people considering any of these they just jump straight to vitamin A only being a toxin because they had the experience of feeling better and health improvements on a low Vitamin A diet.
Does it really seem likely that this “toxin” is in pretty much every food humans have been consuming throughout history. If you believe in god do you really think he would make this design error that we have this toxin in most of the food we eat that we all unaware about. Or is he poisoning us all secretly on purpose - doesn't seem likely.
80% of people are slow oxidisers on Hair trace mineral analysis this means you burn through minerals and vitamins at a slower rate which allows you to build up toxicities. Slow oxidisers have reduced thyroid and adrenal activity.
Now if you go on a Ray peat diet as a slow oxidiser it is basically an early death wish and you certainly will have issues with Vitamin A while on a ray peat diet as a slow oxidiser. High sugar consumption, high calcium consumption, high vit A and then you get bad Vitamin A toxicity.
If you are tired of this argument Alex then why are you making it on a blog dedicated to giving evidence and proving that vitamin A is not a nutrient and is in fact a toxin? Why are you putting all this time into a blog that you find is putting forth such a wild fallacy?
You threw out a long list of maybe's that are all a stretch. Throwing that many maybe's does not make your theories any more likely to be true. In fact you are the person making the extreme claim that requires extreme evidence. Evidence that you so far have failed to show. You have failed so long and so carefully, I now have to wonder if you are not avoiding it on purpose.
Grant's books and his posts and many of us on LYL and here on this blog (more quietly) have given overwhelming evidence that the science behind vitamin A is and always was fraudulent all the way down. If vitamin A is a nutrient then why is Grant and a growing list of folk who are clinically deficient not going blind, not dying and in fact are thriving and improving daily?
Perhaps a look at this thread will help you sort it out. Please notice it is not a long drawn out theory of metabolic minutiae filled with maybe's and if's. It is common sense repeatedly proven facts. Facts that beautifully explain why Grant is here doing so well with so many testimonials offering him gratitude for what he has done and is doing.
@joe Vitamin A being only a toxin hasn't been proven at all either please read my original post again:
"Just because your health issues improved on a low vitamin A diet and just because Grant has been on a low vitamin A diet for 10 years and fixed his health issues neither of those automatically mean Vitamin A is only a toxin."
I've read Grants books and I was never impressed by them, he took this tunnel vision approach of only looking at why vitamin A is a toxin to confirm his bias. He accuses mainstream science of not really looking at the negatives of Vitamin A which is fair, but he is basically doing the same thing on the flip side which is only looking at why Vitamin A is harmful.
He said on a podcast that he only looked up the relationship between copper and vitamin A for a few hours and this really exposes his lack of research around certain areas of Vitamin A. The relationship between Vitamin A, thyroid, copper and ceruloplasmin is a crucial part of human metabolism.
In his research he never considered there could be issues with the metabolism of Vitamin A or any of the other points I brought up, he just revolved his research around his bias of Vitamin A being a toxin and I think thats being intellectually dishonest.
" If vitamin A is a nutrient then why is Grant and a growing list of folk who are clinically deficient not going blind, not dying and in fact are thriving and improving daily? " - Clearly if you are still asking this then you didn't even read the reasons in my original post properly
Quote from Joe on August 28, 2024, 10:26 pmQuote from Alex on August 28, 2024, 2:01 pm@janelle525 When sodium and potassium are low on an HTMA usually means your glutathione is down. I'm glad the approach is working for you but yeah this approach doesn't work for everyone.
I tried a very low vit A approach last week with just beef, oats, just to see if my bile ramped up. It didn't and I felt much worse in the sun too from all the iron from the beef without any calcium or copper to protect against it, but then I had some goats cheese suddenly I felt way better in the sun because I had some calcium and copper to balance out the iron and maybe also the vit A was also helping with the iron too. Also I felt my gallbladder squirting bile out when I had the goats cheese but not when I was strictly low Vit A.
So you tried it for a week and determined low vitamin A does not work for you?
And the only adjustment that you made to the diet was to add vitamin A back in?
No that was recently, did low vitamin A properly for around a year and wasn't impressed by the results from it but it was something I was forced to do as I did have bad toxicity in vitamin A at the time of starting.
Quote from Joe on August 28, 2024, 10:17 pmIf vitamin A is a nutrient then why is Grant and a growing list of folk who are clinically deficient not going blind, not dying and in fact are thriving and improving daily?
@joe “Grant is thriving” Sure keep lying to yourself buddy the evidence says otherwise, thanks to @janelle525 for making this comparison picture.
Gaunt looking face, his demeanour is very lacklustre, hair looks a lot worse, definitely not someone who is “thriving”
Almost never sweats btw even after moderate-intense exercise - huge sign of hypothyroidism, his general demeanour is a big sign of hypothyroidism too, intolerant to a lot of foods
And I’m not denying the fact he has managed to reverse his health conditions with this approach that is a great achievement and he should be proud of that but to say he is thriving is simply being dishonest with yourself.
Grant if you would like to prove me wrong then please do a Hair Trace Mineral Analysis test they are not expensive and far more insightful than blood tests, they are showing what is going on in your cells rather than blood tests which are not indicative of your mineral levels in your cells especially for potassium and magnesium. The cells are where all your energy production takes place. I am pretty sure a HTMA will show there are issues with your metabolism and mineral levels. The hair test will show how well your thyroid and adrenals are working or if they are not. Na:K ratio refers to the sodium potassium pump mechanism ie the electrical potential of your cells. The oxidation Rate on hair tests is showing how oxidative phosphorylation is working, which is the metabolic pathway that cells use to oxidize nutrients with enzymes, which in turn allows them to releasing energy so that they can produce ATP.
To me your copper metabolism isn’t working properly, vitamin A is also involved in copper metabolism and raises ceruloplasmin, ceruloplasmin is needed to regulate iron, copper is needed for the breakdown of neurotransmitters. If they were working I think you would appear happier and have more liveliness and energy in your face when speaking, and your face would also be looking healthier and younger.
Have you tried eating any Vitamin A recently, if so what happens, the thyroid does need some Vitamin A. Vitamin A (with cholesterol) is consumed at a high rate by the corpus luteum, when there is adequate thyroid hormone.
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Quote from Jalee on August 28, 2024, 4:59 pmI didn't misunderstand you, nor did Alex. You have an agenda because of your belief. You'd never talk about the negative effects even if they happen to you, because to you that's "poo-pooing" something you believe in. Its good to admit I guess.
Again misunderstanding me and misrepresenting what I say. I never said I wouldn't discuss side effects. I have everywhere I talk about this. The diet can cause dry eye and heavy menstrual bleeding at least for me. And if it were to destroy my eyes I would report that because I'm not dishonest. I believe vitamin A can be toxic and that if we did need it it's not in the thousands of mcg per day. Even if it turned out for me that I need more than what I currently eat, I would report that. I'm not stupid. But thanks for trying to paint me as stupid.
Grant is smart in not wasting his time trying to prove himself. He writes his blog for all to see, and has documented his health for all to see. That brings with it a lot of criticism. If he were to engage in that criticism he would destroy his life.
Quote from Joe on August 28, 2024, 10:24 pmQuote from Janelle525 on August 28, 2024, 1:31 pmQuote from Alex on August 28, 2024, 12:58 pm
@janelle525 Not sure but the higher your metabolic rate the more you will be able to handle, and the lower then the less you can handle and it can make you more hypothyroid. Also if your glutathione status is good you will be able to handle/metabolise vit A better, if it is bad from toxicities in metals, mold, pathogens, deficiencies of minerals then vit A will probably cause you issues.
I think if you are consuming a bunch of sugar which slows down ALDH, if you are low in potassium mag zinc molybedenum and copper, if you are consuming a bunch of glyphosate, if you are very toxic in metals lowering your glutathione status then its gonna cause you issues, if you have an overgrowth of bad bacteria, fungi or mold then they all burden your ALDH and it won't be processing vit A correctly.
The trouble with certain food sources of vit A like milk , yogurt ice cream is they are all high in calcium which for a slow oxidiser will turn off your proper metabolism as calcium blocks potassium from entering the cells.
And yes if you have built up toxicity in it then it is helpful to reduce intake of vit A
How do you gauge glutathione status? It's not like regular people are going out getting this stuff checked. I've never checked mine. I think asthma and respiratory infections reveal bad glutathione status. And I've never had asthma but I have had my fair share of upper respiratory stuff. I haven't been sick in a yr now. Actually my entire family hasn't been sick. We are eating better than we ever have, we didn't need to eliminate dairy to get there either, both my kids consume ice cream and the younger drinks gatorade and chocolate milk, I eat some cheese for vitamin K2 as vitamin A depletes k. This stuff works. No need to chase your tail on hair tests and supplements. Consume more soluble fiber, make sure you are pooping, get enough animal protein, no fast food, and limit carotenoids and vitamin A. Then the metabolism is fine, sickness is avoided. I think we tend to overcomplicate things. Also I suspect Karen Hurd is on to something with saturated fat. She said this:
"those saturated fats will make no chemical bonds with anything else we have to have fats to be able to make hormones we have to have fats to have the hormones that reduce inflammation but to be able to have a fat to be able to make those nice hormones it has to play if it's so stable it won't play in a chemical reaction then you won't get those hormones and if you don't have any other fats then that means we have to use that saturated fat so it will go through what's called the beta oxidation process which is a six-step chemical process to turn the saturated fat into an unsaturated fat so it will play nicely with its neighbors so a saturated fat is like folded arms across the chest I will have nothing to do with anybody leave me alone I'm just going to go get stored on the body in some nice quiet place and if you want to have a chemical reaction with me you're going to have to fundamentally change me and that's what does happen and when you go through the beta oxidation process most people don't even understand when you actually have to break bonds these single bonds and then you have to make double bonds when that type of chemical reaction happens you create free radicals you create electrons that are just bouncing around without a partner because believe me every electron wants to have a mate it has to have a mate if it doesn't have a mate it will go beat up somebody else and grab its mate because it's got to have a mate no matter what you have to have paired electrons and if you don't you create a free radical and so free radicals get a mate will actually go at I'm talking at huge speeds huge speeds will slam into a cell to rip away a electron and it damages the cell when it slams into it now we have an injury an injured cell and so then we have to have inflammatory things to come in and try to say so section you off we got to heal. But then you also created another angry cell because it's lost an electron and it has to have electron so it'll slam itself into another cell to steal somebody else's electron it's like an allout brawl that's what saturated fats do to us create all out brawls because one guy won't play nice won't play at all just sits there with arm full and say leave me alone might as well just eat the unsaturated fat yes if you just eat the unsaturated fat it's all okay you know you're good you're good no brawls no oxidation well I mean we get oxidative stress from you know other ways so might as well not eat it right . "
Could that be causing low gutathione??? Saturated fat creates inflammation. YIKES. Because everyone is saying these are the best fats to consume. Well let me tell you my Grandma LOVED animal fat and she nearly died of a heart attack.
What fats does Karen like?
She prefers olive oil and nuts.
So my background is I was into WAPF for a few yrs drank raw milk, did the cod liver oil, liver, even ate some of my placenta. Then found Ray Peat and decided sugar was the end all be all for metabolism along with the fat soluble nutrients as @Alex has just regurgitated about vitamin A being necessary for thyroid as he is a Ray Peater too apparently. Well that diet nearly killed me. I was needing upwards of 3,000 calories a day, at only 105 lbs, temp 98.9 from morning through night, pulse at 110 as well which was HELL. Panic attacks, adrenaline rushes like I said from hell. Massive anxiety. IBS-C. White coated tongue from the dairy. Rapid tooth decay from OJ and sugar. Many people have similar stories as me. Massive anxiety and adrenaline sensitivity. Even Ray Peat himself couldn't sleep through the night without waking up to get more sugar. (that was me times a 100). He also had migraines he cured with ice cream. I often said pasta and ice cream saved my life as I was able to get control over my racing heart. But I think it was the starch not the ice cream.
So anyway I found out about Grant through Matt Stone and Garrett Smith in 2018. And started debating about that on the ray peat forum on the most famous and trafficked thread of all time I think! I originally thought it was probably low vitamin D because that's what Ray told us. But my own vitamin D level was not too bad when I was going through all that. So I did stop the vitamin A supps and liver. I continued on with ice cream, cheese, and OJ though. Then I realized my health was continuing to get worse. My digestion was at an absolute crawl, regularly had silent reflux. First thing that really helped was doing betaine hcl. But it did not solve the slow digestion. That's when I decided I wanted to try the beef, beans and rice along with my usual breakfast of pasta in the beginning of this yr. I have now solved most of the acid reflux problem though I still need betaine hcl at times. And I cured my IBS-c. I also have been able to be more calm, I notice within 10 minutes of eating beans how that calms my nerves. Karen Hurd said we re-circulate stress hormones in our bile. Oh how I wish I knew her back when I had the adrenaline from hell! But back then beans would cause a panic attack. That's how toxic my bile was.
Quote from Janelle525 on August 29, 2024, 6:53 amSo my background is I was into WAPF for a few yrs drank raw milk, did the cod liver oil, liver, even ate some of my placenta. Then found Ray Peat and decided sugar was the end all be all for metabolism along with the fat soluble nutrients as @Alex has just regurgitated about vitamin A being necessary for thyroid as he is a Ray Peater too apparently. Well that diet nearly killed me. I was needing upwards of 3,000 calories a day, at only 105 lbs, temp 98.9 from morning through night, pulse at 110 as well which was HELL. Panic attacks, adrenaline rushes like I said from hell. Massive anxiety. IBS-C. White coated tongue from the dairy. Rapid tooth decay from OJ and sugar. Many people have similar stories as me. Massive anxiety and adrenaline sensitivity. Even Ray Peat himself couldn't sleep through the night without waking up to get more sugar. (that was me times a 100). He also had migraines he cured with ice cream. I often said pasta and ice cream saved my life as I was able to get control over my racing heart. But I think it was the starch not the ice cream.
I literally mentioned in my post earlier why the ray peat diet will cause issues with Vitamin A and cause vitamin A toxicity.
"Now if you go on a Ray peat diet as a slow oxidiser it is basically an early death wish and you certainly will have issues with Vitamin A while on a ray peat diet as a slow oxidiser. High sugar consumption, high calcium consumption, high vit A and then you get bad Vitamin A toxicity."
High sugar consumption slowing down ALDH, draining mineral stores, high calcium intake blocking potassium from entering the cells which stops the thyroid from working correctly.
I literally mentioned in my post earlier why the ray peat diet will cause issues with Vitamin A and cause vitamin A toxicity.
"Now if you go on a Ray peat diet as a slow oxidiser it is basically an early death wish and you certainly will have issues with Vitamin A while on a ray peat diet as a slow oxidiser. High sugar consumption, high calcium consumption, high vit A and then you get bad Vitamin A toxicity."
High sugar consumption slowing down ALDH, draining mineral stores, high calcium intake blocking potassium from entering the cells which stops the thyroid from working correctly.
Also high sugar consumption feeds yeast like crazy, if you have an overgrowth of yeast, mold or bad bacteria guess what happens they can produce Acetaldehyde or ethanol as byproducts and this can inhibit your ALDH so that you won't be able to process Vit A correctly, leading to you becoming toxic in it or getting bad reactions from ingesting it
Also high sugar consumption feeds yeast like crazy, if you have an overgrowth of yeast, mold or bad bacteria guess what happens they can produce Acetaldehyde or ethanol as byproducts and this can inhibit your ALDH so that you won't be able to process Vit A correctly, leading to you becoming toxic in it or getting bad reactions from ingesting it
Again another factor Grant has never even considered in his research or theories