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NAD deficiency - is this a major issue for vA toxicity/detox?
@hermes
Some more silicon stuff
“Silicon (for HIF-1a) and magnesium deficiency, plus overuse of proline dehydrogenase and hydroxyproline dehydrogenase to supply electrons to the ETC. Collagen metabolites get catabolised to supply electrons when there’s a shortage from Complex I + II + ETF-QO.
The magnesium you need for the collagen synthesis reaction - needs 4xMg-ATP.
I started poking around another electron supplying protein on the inside of the mitochondrial matrix yesterday called SQR for which parts of that pathway also appears to inhibit collagen synthesis and we know from urine data that this pathway is running high.”
@alexm worrying about organic stuff from Waitrose being contaminated as I’ve trusted that.
Very interesting list of bacteria/yeast producing acetaldehyde. I knew about the yeast problem, but not the others. Lactobacillus plantarum is in some probiotics I think. Maybe others are too. One to watch out for. Some of them are hydrogen sulphide producers which increase in conditions of sulphate deficiency (Greg Nigh and others work). Another link between vA metabolism and sulphur metabolism? They often seem to go wrong together. Molybdenum competition is one link. Is this another?
Interesting about the binder you are using. I’ll have to Google. I’ve been using charcoal and Toxaprevent (a zeolite) combination last thing at night. Recommend by my NT. She also recommended Quicksilver sensitive binder which I’ve bought but not yet tried. Binders are helpful. Soluble fibre does the a similar thing but due to glutamate issue I’ve had to cut down on beans. I could use psyllium instead I think, like @liz has done. Charcoal is the best binder for porphyrins though which I think is a major component of my dysfunction (and another deep rabbit hole).
@jaj Well I’ve tried the Waitrose duchy eggs since I’ve been back in London after seeing your recommendation and they’ve been mostly good for me. If I overdo them though they shut off my bile, I get constipated, feel cold and don’t feel good. Interesting that my mum also knew that if you eat too many eggs you get constipated, so it seems to be a similar mechanism to the Vit A in dairy products shutting off bile. Before I went to Costa Rica the Daylesford organic eggs (which also have yellow yolks not orange) caused me big issues the duchy eggs seem better or I’m just processing Vit A better now since going to Costa Rica.
I think tolerating eggs really comes down to if they are feeding the birds glyphosate grains, Vit A sups and if your ALDH, ADH and minerals are running properly.
I haven’t tried that much of the Waitrose organic fruit and veg so some of it might be fine. The Sainsbury’s organic produce there is definitely a major issue though.
Imo Vit A toxicity happens from a combination of either chronic infections fungi, bacteria, mold, viruses or dysbiosis, Low thyroid function, glyphosate,pesticide chemical exposure, heavy metals toxicity + mineral deficiencies , bile slowing drugs and supplements, choline deficiency and overconsumption of Vit A foods, supps and accutane.
From the new Anthony Mawson paper posted by Grant:
‘Growing evidence suggests that the molecular basis of retinoid toxicity involves mitochondrial dysfunction and cell death via apoptosis (de Oliveira, 2015; Melnik, 2017).’
Fits entirely with my idea that my core issue is unhealthy mitochondria which got worse on the vA detox. If the exit is not clear then a detox can become a re-tox. Severe choline deficiency is one way the exit gets blocked. Blocked ALDH due to low NAD is another. There are many.
VA toxicity is a very bad idea, as we all agree. However, the vA detox is a powerful tool and needs to be handled with extreme care imo. Detox symptoms are probably actually re-tox symptoms, where vA is out of storage but not exiting the body efficiently. Inducing a vA detox without understanding fully how it leaves the body and making sure there are no blocks, is potentially a disaster (me as an example). Higher vA levels circulating the body mean more mitochondrial damage. Mitochondria are the hub of metabolism. Upset them too much and the cell danger response gets switched on. This is the basis of chronic disease.
For me I believe the vA detox also switched on secondary porphyria which also damages mitochondria and slows heme based enzymes (cytochrome P450 enzymes are heme based) required for detox so making everything worse. As I say the vA detox is a powerful tool. We need to fully understand what can go wrong.
@jaj, I am wondering what role screen time and blue light plays in the toxic effect of vitamin A. Did you have lots of screentime before you got sick? I do know that vitamin A is a seasonal thing in our biology, and also the sun makes us get rid of it through our skin and maybe eyes?
I wonder if we lived natural lives outside a lot and did not have these fake lights all the timer around, also the energy saving bulbs are horrible in spectrum. So could it be that those very wrong light spectrums make our body not able to detox the vitamin A properly?
And when one tries to detox vitamin A (and so it will first increase in the blood) it can be a dangerous thing if too little sunlight and too much screen and other artificial lights?
Maybe the people doing fine on high carotene and vitamin A / or the vitamin A detox, spend more of the time outside, and less screen time?
I recall reading here that some member felt so much better in the summer time with lots of sun.... I do too, I tan every minute I can, my body crave the sunlight. It always did btw. Right now I am in the sun too with only my silicon toe spreaders on....lol
Yes I’m sure it’s a huge factor. I was having a lot of screen time before I got sick with vA toxicity. I was doing a nutritional therapy diploma and also my Mum was in and out of hospital so I was sitting around a lot researching on phone.
Being outside with feet on the ground is how we’ve evolved to be. It must be healthier. Enjoy the sun ☀️
@jaj yes it does seem to play a pretty big role then. Funny I feel the best when I am not on the screen at all....
It is a weird day, it snows and then then sun shines, on and off, all day. But as soon as the sun is out again, so am I 😉 full time job kinda 🙂
I’m still not doing much research and I’m not on forums much either. I’m allowing myself an hour each morning! It’s too NAD depleting for me at the moment.
In my thinking I’m putting lack of NAD and aldehyde build up at the core of my dysfunction. Behind this is unhealthy mitochondria. Having enough NAD is a complex balance between recycling, production, use and whether it’s being ‘stolen’ by the NOX enzyme. Healthy mitochondria are key for recycling. Stress, choline deficiency and vA toxicity are some of the main drivers of mitochondrial dysfunction (I think in me). Oxalates cause issues too and Meri Arthur has highlighted how oxalates caused vA toxicity in her daughter (block NAD recycling).
I think, for me, the vA detox method I used made my mitochondrial dysfunction worse (stress, choline deficiency, excess vA leaving liver, oxalate dump and I think I became an endogenous oxalate producer). I think that this is the crux of the ‘detox setback cycle’. The worsening of metabolism. Low NAD. Slow ALDH. This causes a ‘re-tox’ due to poor vA metabolism which sets off a vicious cycle. The fluctuating NAD could bring about aldehyde accumulation and then retinoic acid dump (with temporary increased NAD) in waves. If the retinoic acid is trapped by poor liver detox phase 1, 2, 2.5 and/or 3 then this could overwhelm resources and lead to retinoic acid build up. An ‘NAD fluctuation’ theory of vA toxicity?
Worsening mitochondrial function equals worsening metabolism and reliance on workarounds. I’ve described my illness as ‘workarounditis’ - too many excititoxic substances being accumulated trying to increases NAD - lactate, ammonia, quinolinic acid. Then slow ALDH means aldehyde accumulation, B1/B6 deficiency and increased glutamate. I think glutamate is the final seizure trigger. A low glutamate diet is helpful as is B1/6 supplementation. But this doesn’t get to the real root cause which is poor mitochondrial health imo.
How to address poor mitochondrial health? Improve those I have and/or make more to improve resilience. Calming down the cell danger response is key - my subconscious needs to feel safe. The cell danger response puts the body into a ‘war’ state. We need to convince it that ‘peacetime’ has returned. PC supplementation and nervous system balance are key ways to do this. Adequate phosphatidylcholine is essential for mitochondrial membrane health (others too?). I’m doing various calming practices to address nervous system aspect. Making more mitochondria involves hormetic practises - cold plunge, phytonutrients, exercise etc. I thinking about these. Haven’t taken a cold plunge yet!!
This is my current thinking. Putting NAD fluctuation at the core of vA toxicity/detox problems. This links in with the choline work as choline deficiency is a key driver of poor cellular health. I still believe that vA toxicity is a massive and largely unrecognised issue, however, addressing it needs to be done with mitochondrial health in mind. Otherwise the vA detox can turn into a re-tox and cause a disastrous metabolic health decline in the body. We can become locked in a negative vicious cycle with the body scrabbling for enough NAD. I’m the poster girl for this.
I just want to add that Meri Arthur - a US dietitian who has joined the VA toxicity FB group - has also come to the conclusion that NAD fluctuations are key. Her work has been completely independent to mine and she sees clients and has a daughter with special needs who she has observed with the various issues related to high aldehydes Vs high retinoic acid. She also thinks low retinoic acid can be an issue, which goes against Grants conclusions, but she makes very useful points.
She has also connected oxalates to damaging NAD recycling via the LDH enzyme. Oxalates can also damage complex 1 I’ve read. She thinks her daughter became vA toxic due to oxalates. I’ve always suspected a link but never known why. Edit: endogenous oxalate production increasing on the vA detox due to B vitamin deficiencies (B1/B6) could in fact be a major driver of NAD depletion and slow ALDH which drives the ‘detox setback cycle’. Hmmm 🤔
Another interesting idea is that excess retinaldehyde can react with ethanolamine to form A2E (in lipofuscin). This is implicated in eye issues and neuro degeneration. This also reduces a source of endogenous choline apparently, thus increasing need for choline on the vA detox.
I think she has some really interesting ideas. And a vast experience of this all happening in action.
Edit: @alexm has also come to this conclusion independently too - that NAD availability is key. I mentioned him earlier but don’t want not acknowledge again how useful his posts have been to the development in my thinking.