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NAD deficiency - is this a major issue for vA toxicity/detox?
Quote from
Mat on February 22, 2022, 12:25 pm
@jaj I have replied on the seb derm thread but I will repost some part of the pics here as well since I feel it's relevant.
So the tryptophan is "high-ish" but by very few. The kynurenine is OK tho high end of range. Not sure if either of them can be interpreted meaningfully, and the ratio is good.. And in all the B6 and B2 blood test that I have done, everything was in range. Same for Mg on HTMA. But yes in theory, lack of NAD because the kynu pathway isnt functionning properly could slow down ALDH, but like you said I would expect to have a s*** ton of low energy symptoms if it was the case... IDK.
On a side note, B6 was low as per OAT. But supplementation in any form (P5P or pyridoxine) never brought any relief to the seb derm or any other symptoms. I have contacted the lab for the HPU and I shall receive the results this week. I will post them here. I also did the zinc in blood, but it was too high (I was using a lot as per the work with Dr Smith for some time - 100mg for 1 month then 50mg - nothing either)
@ourania That's interesting thanks for the feedback on the seb derm ! So the B2 + B6 + Mg + Nicotinic acid brought some skin relief quite quickly then ? Or was it the Nicotinamide instead of the Nicotinic acid ?
@jaj I have replied on the seb derm thread but I will repost some part of the pics here as well since I feel it's relevant.
So the tryptophan is "high-ish" but by very few. The kynurenine is OK tho high end of range. Not sure if either of them can be interpreted meaningfully, and the ratio is good.. And in all the B6 and B2 blood test that I have done, everything was in range. Same for Mg on HTMA. But yes in theory, lack of NAD because the kynu pathway isnt functionning properly could slow down ALDH, but like you said I would expect to have a s*** ton of low energy symptoms if it was the case... IDK.
On a side note, B6 was low as per OAT. But supplementation in any form (P5P or pyridoxine) never brought any relief to the seb derm or any other symptoms. I have contacted the lab for the HPU and I shall receive the results this week. I will post them here. I also did the zinc in blood, but it was too high (I was using a lot as per the work with Dr Smith for some time - 100mg for 1 month then 50mg - nothing either)
@ourania That's interesting thanks for the feedback on the seb derm ! So the B2 + B6 + Mg + Nicotinic acid brought some skin relief quite quickly then ? Or was it the Nicotinamide instead of the Nicotinic acid ?
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Quote from
Mat on February 22, 2022, 12:36 pm
On a side note, I've been looking back at my 3 OAT I've done these last 3 years.
First, you can see that the Kynu pathway was never elevated. Then there is also a low kreb cycle pattern (low metabolites) that could fit within the lack of NAD theory. I wonder...
On a side note, I've been looking back at my 3 OAT I've done these last 3 years.
First, you can see that the Kynu pathway was never elevated. Then there is also a low kreb cycle pattern (low metabolites) that could fit within the lack of NAD theory. I wonder...
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Quote from
Ourania on February 22, 2022, 8:29 pm
@mat
So the B2 + B6 + Mg + Nicotinic acid brought some skin relief quite quickly then ? Or was it the Nicotinamide instead of the Nicotinic acid ?
I don't know. I have stopped niacinamide and nicotinic acid for the moment. Did not take any yesterday. The symptoms of vA detox are abating, but yesterday I got what I suppose might have been a delayed flush from the nicotinic acid: my left ear is bright red, and burning severely at the top, as though I had sun burn from above. Still quite painful today with the back of the pavilion raw. Today some itchy painful bumps appeared just behind my right ear. Maybe nicotinic acid flushes out retinoic acid from some special places the other supplements do not reach? A kind of Heineken effect?
The post-niacin detox was quite brutal but we seem to come out of it in less than the customary 5+ days.
The skin relief seems to hold for the moment, but no further improvements.
@mat
So the B2 + B6 + Mg + Nicotinic acid brought some skin relief quite quickly then ? Or was it the Nicotinamide instead of the Nicotinic acid ?
I don't know. I have stopped niacinamide and nicotinic acid for the moment. Did not take any yesterday. The symptoms of vA detox are abating, but yesterday I got what I suppose might have been a delayed flush from the nicotinic acid: my left ear is bright red, and burning severely at the top, as though I had sun burn from above. Still quite painful today with the back of the pavilion raw. Today some itchy painful bumps appeared just behind my right ear. Maybe nicotinic acid flushes out retinoic acid from some special places the other supplements do not reach? A kind of Heineken effect?
The post-niacin detox was quite brutal but we seem to come out of it in less than the customary 5+ days.
The skin relief seems to hold for the moment, but no further improvements.
Jenny, puddleduck and Mat have reacted to this post.
Quote from
Orion on February 23, 2022, 9:18 am
@jaj @ourania
I am not taking any nicotinic acid today either, my sleep the last two nights as been semi insomnia, its a type of sleep that is hard to describe, I am sleeping, but its like floating just outside of deep sleep. You are asleep but aware that you are not, and I get up absolutely wrecked/exhausted. I tried about, ~30mg/day, so about 10mg each time. I will take a couple days off, and go even lower for a second experiment, or after my sleep is somewhat normal again! Wonder if it is dumping VA out of the brain 🙂
@jaj @ourania
I am not taking any nicotinic acid today either, my sleep the last two nights as been semi insomnia, its a type of sleep that is hard to describe, I am sleeping, but its like floating just outside of deep sleep. You are asleep but aware that you are not, and I get up absolutely wrecked/exhausted. I tried about, ~30mg/day, so about 10mg each time. I will take a couple days off, and go even lower for a second experiment, or after my sleep is somewhat normal again! Wonder if it is dumping VA out of the brain 🙂
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Quote from
Ourania on February 24, 2022, 2:02 am
@jaj @orion
Wonder if it is dumping VA out of the brain
I wonder too, maybe not out of the brain, but certainly out of the head. Today (not having taken nicotinic acid for two days now) I feel OK but my ears are still pushing out red itchy spots, also present now on the left side of the neck and eyebrows. Sleep was Ok but not great.
Interesting: I am in a very good mood. More hopeful that normal. Also some small successes in my general luck, not fantastic, but noticeable. Every time this luck happened when I was replete with thiamine.
This ear process is a bit like what happens to Kaanpat yogis who wear heavy earrings (for the first couple of years they are made of uncooked clay to better absorb whatever is leaving the head at the beginning). Walking gives a swing that pumps out whatever is coming out (a bit like Thai massage with the lady fondling the ears at the end).
I hope this luck will hold, not everything in my life is as it should. Improvements are necessary.
@jaj @orion
Wonder if it is dumping VA out of the brain
I wonder too, maybe not out of the brain, but certainly out of the head. Today (not having taken nicotinic acid for two days now) I feel OK but my ears are still pushing out red itchy spots, also present now on the left side of the neck and eyebrows. Sleep was Ok but not great.
Interesting: I am in a very good mood. More hopeful that normal. Also some small successes in my general luck, not fantastic, but noticeable. Every time this luck happened when I was replete with thiamine.
This ear process is a bit like what happens to Kaanpat yogis who wear heavy earrings (for the first couple of years they are made of uncooked clay to better absorb whatever is leaving the head at the beginning). Walking gives a swing that pumps out whatever is coming out (a bit like Thai massage with the lady fondling the ears at the end).
I hope this luck will hold, not everything in my life is as it should. Improvements are necessary.
Jenny and puddleduck have reacted to this post.
Quote from
Jenny on February 24, 2022, 5:47 am
Such interesting observations and knowledge. Thank you. @orion and @ourania. I have much to learn.
I’ve received a pre print of the paper by the long covid NAD deficiency group entitled ‘ Proposed pathophysiology of Long COVID-19: A Form Fruste of Covid Induced Pellagra’.
Unfortunately my internet is down and I've only got flakey 4G and my iPhone so reading it has been a bit of an eye strain. I’m planning to do a post on long covid and my take on it’s relevance to the vA detox when I’ve digested it all. Basically I think that if covid involves a dump of retinoids (Anthony Mawson and my experience) then long covid could throw some light on what could go wrong while dealing with a bunch of retinoids - detox setback cycle??
A thought that comes into my head is what Grant says about the muscle meat carnivore diet - they don’t get detox setback cycles. Maybe all that meat keeps B12 and niacin levels up high. They seem to be the two long covid theories that make a lot of sense to me. B12 deficiency (Dr Albert Mir) and NAD deficiency (Dr Wentzel et al). Maybe it’s these nutrients in meat that hold the answer?? What do you think @ggenereux2014?
Such interesting observations and knowledge. Thank you. @orion and @ourania. I have much to learn.
I’ve received a pre print of the paper by the long covid NAD deficiency group entitled ‘ Proposed pathophysiology of Long COVID-19: A Form Fruste of Covid Induced Pellagra’.
Unfortunately my internet is down and I've only got flakey 4G and my iPhone so reading it has been a bit of an eye strain. I’m planning to do a post on long covid and my take on it’s relevance to the vA detox when I’ve digested it all. Basically I think that if covid involves a dump of retinoids (Anthony Mawson and my experience) then long covid could throw some light on what could go wrong while dealing with a bunch of retinoids - detox setback cycle??
A thought that comes into my head is what Grant says about the muscle meat carnivore diet - they don’t get detox setback cycles. Maybe all that meat keeps B12 and niacin levels up high. They seem to be the two long covid theories that make a lot of sense to me. B12 deficiency (Dr Albert Mir) and NAD deficiency (Dr Wentzel et al). Maybe it’s these nutrients in meat that hold the answer?? What do you think
@ggenereux2014?
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puddleducktimOuraniakathy55wood
Quote from
Orion on February 24, 2022, 7:53 am
Slept much better last night, will start super low dose nicotinic acid tomorrow, mornings only, and see how I react.
Slept much better last night, will start super low dose nicotinic acid tomorrow, mornings only, and see how I react.
Jenny, puddleduck and Ourania have reacted to this post.
Quote from
Ourania on February 24, 2022, 8:27 am
I shall wait until my ears get back to normal. Still very inflamed and itchy. But I am still in the race!
I shall wait until my ears get back to normal. Still very inflamed and itchy. But I am still in the race!
Jenny and puddleduck have reacted to this post.
Quote from
ggenereux on February 24, 2022, 10:10 am
Hi @jaj,
I have not looked more into why the carnivore diet does not as often cause people to go into the detox setback. I agree though that it’s probably because of the additional protein intake, with the B12 etc, and / or because of the reduced carbs not taxing the B vitamins.
I think the carnivore diet also enables people to pretty much side-step the complications of insulin resistance; at least so in the short term.
Hi @jaj,
I have not looked more into why the carnivore diet does not as often cause people to go into the detox setback. I agree though that it’s probably because of the additional protein intake, with the B12 etc, and / or because of the reduced carbs not taxing the B vitamins.
I think the carnivore diet also enables people to pretty much side-step the complications of insulin resistance; at least so in the short term.
Jenny, puddleduck and 3 other users have reacted to this post.
JennypuddleduckBeatakathy55woodJavier
Quote from
Jenny on February 27, 2022, 2:06 am
After taking the B multi including niacin (it was all I had at the time) I didn’t feel great. Stiff sore fingers, dizziness, nausea, reflux. However, I have no idea if it was the niacin or another B or the combination. I will try again when I feel better. My symptoms felt like a toxic bile dump. This could have been a sped up ALDH increasing retinoic acid or it could have been another toxicity.
My pyroluria expert said in her email to me: ‘Just do whats on the plan for now then fine tune (just take B6). You only need massive doses of Bs because the gut cant make them, but throw them in now and you’ll release all the heavy metals with no outlet. Thats whats causing your fear. Hard to be patient when anxious but it sure pays off and saves you oodles of money. You will heal quicker too… ’
Maybe she was right! Adding Bs could have caused a heavy metal dump?? IDK. She doesn’t work with vA toxicity so I’m having to combine her knowledge with the vA knowledge and sometimes they are not compatible.
After taking the B multi including niacin (it was all I had at the time) I didn’t feel great. Stiff sore fingers, dizziness, nausea, reflux. However, I have no idea if it was the niacin or another B or the combination. I will try again when I feel better. My symptoms felt like a toxic bile dump. This could have been a sped up ALDH increasing retinoic acid or it could have been another toxicity.
My pyroluria expert said in her email to me: ‘Just do whats on the plan for now then fine tune (just take B6). You only need massive doses of Bs because the gut cant make them, but throw them in now and you’ll release all the heavy metals with no outlet. Thats whats causing your fear. Hard to be patient when anxious but it sure pays off and saves you oodles of money. You will heal quicker too… ’
Maybe she was right! Adding Bs could have caused a heavy metal dump?? IDK. She doesn’t work with vA toxicity so I’m having to combine her knowledge with the vA knowledge and sometimes they are not compatible.
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