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NAD deficiency - is this a major issue for vA toxicity/detox?
Quote from
Jenny on February 27, 2022, 2:22 am
Back to the subject of NAD deficiency. I suspect for some people the best way to address this will not be by adding niacin, but will be stopping it being ‘stolen’, so increasing the supply of NAD this way. Plugging the ‘leak’ rather than adding more!
Andrew Baird has reminded me of the importance of nitric oxide. Nitric oxide modulates NOX. Upregulated NOX is the major source of the NADPH steal (Bob Miller).
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5cc1b2259d4149175b931ed4/t/5f4329292428047f125f5371/1598236969784/Holmes%2BCycle%2Bwith%2BIngredients2.pdf
The body makes NO in two ways. The first reduces with age and stress. We get more dependant on the alternative way that depends on nitrates in food. The low vA diet removes many of the sources of nitrates in food. This could be a problem for some I think. Alison Vickery Masterclasses have a good interview on this topic but I’m sure there are others. Beth Shirley is the expert here.
https://www.alisonvickery.com/masterclasses
Limited diets can have unintended consequences.
Back to the subject of NAD deficiency. I suspect for some people the best way to address this will not be by adding niacin, but will be stopping it being ‘stolen’, so increasing the supply of NAD this way. Plugging the ‘leak’ rather than adding more!
Andrew Baird has reminded me of the importance of nitric oxide. Nitric oxide modulates NOX. Upregulated NOX is the major source of the NADPH steal (Bob Miller).
Click to access Holmes%2BCycle%2Bwith%2BIngredients2.pdf
The body makes NO in two ways. The first reduces with age and stress. We get more dependant on the alternative way that depends on nitrates in food. The low vA diet removes many of the sources of nitrates in food. This could be a problem for some I think. Alison Vickery Masterclasses have a good interview on this topic but I’m sure there are others. Beth Shirley is the expert here.
https://www.alisonvickery.com/masterclasses
Limited diets can have unintended consequences.
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puddleduckOuraniakathy55wood
Quote from
Rachel on February 27, 2022, 4:08 am
@jaj
Hi Jenny
Thanks for creating this post. I have attached an image of a test I ran a few years ago (Metabolic Analysis Profile) which has puzzled me. My practitioner at the time had very little to say about it and nothing that made sense to me. It's always bugged me. I would be interested in your take on it if you are happy to discuss. If you look at the citric acid cycle you will see that the succinic acid was below detectable levels. This suggests to me that there is a bottle neck or deficiency or some sort in the part of the cycle immediately before the succinic acid ie the NADH / FADH2 part. Does this make any sense in the context of your recent research into NAD and the detox process?
Interestingly I have supplemented niacin in the past and found it benefited my mental health. I was taking much larger doses than is probably wise. I am more wary of supplements and large doses now. I am wondering though if it is something I should revisit. I also have CFS which is something you mentioned.
@jaj
Hi Jenny
Thanks for creating this post. I have attached an image of a test I ran a few years ago (Metabolic Analysis Profile) which has puzzled me. My practitioner at the time had very little to say about it and nothing that made sense to me. It's always bugged me. I would be interested in your take on it if you are happy to discuss. If you look at the citric acid cycle you will see that the succinic acid was below detectable levels. This suggests to me that there is a bottle neck or deficiency or some sort in the part of the cycle immediately before the succinic acid ie the NADH / FADH2 part. Does this make any sense in the context of your recent research into NAD and the detox process?
Interestingly I have supplemented niacin in the past and found it benefited my mental health. I was taking much larger doses than is probably wise. I am more wary of supplements and large doses now. I am wondering though if it is something I should revisit. I also have CFS which is something you mentioned.
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Quote from
Orion on February 27, 2022, 7:34 am
I took ~10mg nicotinic acid the last two days in the morning, both nights had the best sleep, getting two nights together of good sleep is very rare for me! Will continue with 10mg each morning.
@jiri @rachel I also started taking bigger amounts of B5 to dry up my skin, B5 is a big factor in the citric acid cycle. I supp'd succinic acid, and also malic acid in the past, hoping it would help like B5, but did not see any pros. Read that most of us are deficient in B5 as well, just like all the other Bs! @jaj
I took ~10mg nicotinic acid the last two days in the morning, both nights had the best sleep, getting two nights together of good sleep is very rare for me! Will continue with 10mg each morning.
@jiri @rachel I also started taking bigger amounts of B5 to dry up my skin, B5 is a big factor in the citric acid cycle. I supp'd succinic acid, and also malic acid in the past, hoping it would help like B5, but did not see any pros. Read that most of us are deficient in B5 as well, just like all the other Bs! @jaj
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Quote from
Jenny on February 28, 2022, 2:01 am
@orion
https://www.wellnessresources.com/news/pantethine-activates-aldehyde-dehydrogenase
Grif sent me this link on B5 and ALDH.
I haven’t looked into it yet. I’m having a research break. I have no internet (neighbours builders cut through cable) and my eyes are not good atm so reading on my iPhone too much is unhelpful. Therefore I have nothing to say about it but I thought you might be interested as you are using B5.
@orion
https://www.wellnessresources.com/news/pantethine-activates-aldehyde-dehydrogenase
Grif sent me this link on B5 and ALDH.
I haven’t looked into it yet. I’m having a research break. I have no internet (neighbours builders cut through cable) and my eyes are not good atm so reading on my iPhone too much is unhelpful. Therefore I have nothing to say about it but I thought you might be interested as you are using B5.
Quote from
Orion on February 28, 2022, 7:48 am
@jaj Thanks for this. Going way back in the literature, B5 is always praised, seems like one B that we can all use more of, even though it is in almost everything we eat.
@jaj Thanks for this. Going way back in the literature, B5 is always praised, seems like one B that we can all use more of, even though it is in almost everything we eat.
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Quote from
puddleduck on February 28, 2022, 10:05 am
Quote from
Rachel on February 27, 2022, 4:08 am
@jaj
Hi Jenny
Thanks for creating this post. I have attached an image of a test I ran a few years ago (Metabolic Analysis Profile) which has puzzled me. My practitioner at the time had very little to say about it and nothing that made sense to me. It's always bugged me. I would be interested in your take on it if you are happy to discuss. If you look at the citric acid cycle you will see that the succinic acid was below detectable levels. This suggests to me that there is a bottle neck or deficiency or some sort in the part of the cycle immediately before the succinic acid ie the NADH / FADH2 part. Does this make any sense in the context of your recent research into NAD and the detox process?
Interestingly I have supplemented niacin in the past and found it benefited my mental health. I was taking much larger doses than is probably wise. I am more wary of supplements and large doses now. I am wondering though if it is something I should revisit. I also have CFS which is something you mentioned.
Here’s some info about safely dosing niacin:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK548176/
I’m curious about now too, though!
Quote from
Rachel on February 27, 2022, 4:08 am
@jaj
Hi Jenny
Thanks for creating this post. I have attached an image of a test I ran a few years ago (Metabolic Analysis Profile) which has puzzled me. My practitioner at the time had very little to say about it and nothing that made sense to me. It's always bugged me. I would be interested in your take on it if you are happy to discuss. If you look at the citric acid cycle you will see that the succinic acid was below detectable levels. This suggests to me that there is a bottle neck or deficiency or some sort in the part of the cycle immediately before the succinic acid ie the NADH / FADH2 part. Does this make any sense in the context of your recent research into NAD and the detox process?
Interestingly I have supplemented niacin in the past and found it benefited my mental health. I was taking much larger doses than is probably wise. I am more wary of supplements and large doses now. I am wondering though if it is something I should revisit. I also have CFS which is something you mentioned.
Here’s some info about safely dosing niacin:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK548176/
I’m curious about now too, though!
Jenny, Rachel and Ourania have reacted to this post.
Interesting about B5 increasing ALDH. I had never paid attention to that particular B vitamin until I got a Spectracell Micronutrient Test done recently that said I was horribly deficient in B5. I'm still not sure how much to trust the Spectracell results as a diagnostic tool, but I did start supplementing B5 to see if I notice anything.
I actually think I've seen a notable boost in energy if I take a B12 supplement. The last thing I thought I would be deficient in on an all-meat diet is B12, but it looks like it might be the case, despite having serum B12 values just above the normal range over the past several years.
Interesting about B5 increasing ALDH. I had never paid attention to that particular B vitamin until I got a Spectracell Micronutrient Test done recently that said I was horribly deficient in B5. I'm still not sure how much to trust the Spectracell results as a diagnostic tool, but I did start supplementing B5 to see if I notice anything.
I actually think I've seen a notable boost in energy if I take a B12 supplement. The last thing I thought I would be deficient in on an all-meat diet is B12, but it looks like it might be the case, despite having serum B12 values just above the normal range over the past several years.
Jenny, puddleduck and Elizabeth have reacted to this post.
Quote from
Jiří on February 28, 2022, 2:22 pm
@wavygravygadzooks some people have hair loss form higher doses of B5 it looks B5 can deplete biotin..
@wavygravygadzooks some people have hair loss form higher doses of B5 it looks B5 can deplete biotin..
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Quote from
Ourania on February 28, 2022, 10:33 pm
@jiri I just wanted to point out that we had very negative effects following any B5 supplementation. Maybe it did indeed offset the balance with biotin, the supplementation of which had very negative effects too! I don't remember dosages but it stopped us pursuing this.
@jaj @orion For the last two days my husband took 10 mg nicotinic acid. He had flushes everytime, mainly in the left arm, a little on the right arm too. This in spite of taking it after food as advised.
I did not take any yet, my ears are now back to normal but some kind of detox is still going on, my neck is very stiff, my left arm got pins and needles twice, some pimples appeared on my back below my left shoulder. I think the nicotinic acid definitely acts on the head. My husband is quite cheerful!
@jiri I just wanted to point out that we had very negative effects following any B5 supplementation. Maybe it did indeed offset the balance with biotin, the supplementation of which had very negative effects too! I don't remember dosages but it stopped us pursuing this.
@jaj @orion For the last two days my husband took 10 mg nicotinic acid. He had flushes everytime, mainly in the left arm, a little on the right arm too. This in spite of taking it after food as advised.
I did not take any yet, my ears are now back to normal but some kind of detox is still going on, my neck is very stiff, my left arm got pins and needles twice, some pimples appeared on my back below my left shoulder. I think the nicotinic acid definitely acts on the head. My husband is quite cheerful!
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Jennypuddleduckkathy55wood
Quote from
Jenny on March 1, 2022, 7:45 am
@rachel sorry for not getting back to you sooner. We still have no internet (over a week now!) and my eyes are playing up so can’t read on my iPhone much.
I looked at my family members ONE test. They have CFS/me and they also have very low succinic acid, so I’m guessing it’s significant. I think often CFS means a reliance on anaerobic respiration so I’m not such how it all fits in (brain not working well!). One thing that did come to mind is the heme pathway goes off the citric acid cycle just before succinic acid. Glycine and succinyl coA start the heme pathway. This can get upregulated sometimes and stuck in the on position (porphyria). If that was happening I guess it could drain succinic acid. Just a guess though. Porphyria is an area I’ve looked at. I think I posted about it under the pyroluria thread.
@rachel sorry for not getting back to you sooner. We still have no internet (over a week now!) and my eyes are playing up so can’t read on my iPhone much.
I looked at my family members ONE test. They have CFS/me and they also have very low succinic acid, so I’m guessing it’s significant. I think often CFS means a reliance on anaerobic respiration so I’m not such how it all fits in (brain not working well!). One thing that did come to mind is the heme pathway goes off the citric acid cycle just before succinic acid. Glycine and succinyl coA start the heme pathway. This can get upregulated sometimes and stuck in the on position (porphyria). If that was happening I guess it could drain succinic acid. Just a guess though. Porphyria is an area I’ve looked at. I think I posted about it under the pyroluria thread.
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