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New protocol to fix iron/copper toxicity
@whatisaging you have elevated liver enzymes right. That is last thing I need now to put pressure on my liver/kidenys..
Btw what is depleting biotin so much that you guys are using so crazy amounts? I heard biotin can feed some pathogens? Hard to imagine that even 10 mg capsules are not enough heh.. Because on that 10% dose there doesn't seem anything that would deplete biotin so much.. For sure not 100mg of B5. I am taking now more B5 even without doing it as hG7.. I am taking 250mg of B5 and 5mg of biotin.. Also people report acne from biotin. No issues on so high doses with it?
@jiri Yeah elevated enzymes a few months back. It does require listening to your body to adjust. People have different metal burdens. Not adjusting correctly can cause pain. Fortunately, I have figured out how to fix my pains, have felt ok for about 2 months.
I can only speculate on what is depleting biotin, and there are several explanations. One is that various tissues are being damaged in the process of metals being released from metalloproteins, so biotin is used to regenerate them. This could explain the tooth pains, since calcium also stimulates keratin formation, so in the absence of biotin, the body might be draining calcium from the bones.
Candida doesn't seem to be a problem for me, since my white tongue is gone on the protocol, possibly since EGCG is removing iron. No unusual acne for me.
@whatisaging there seems to be huge difference in how you take EGCG with or without food and if that food has iron..
Interesting that nobody is talking about this on lowtoxinforum. Nobody is talking about how to take it if on empty stomach or with food and if with food what kind of food.
Taking 4000mg of EGCG on empty stomach will have completely different effect than taking it with big steak and some grains where is a lot of heme and non heme iron..
So if my goal is to take egcg fo chelation of metals that are already in the body not just blocking what I could absorb from a meal it should be taken on empty stomach...?
Why Jacob is not talking about it at all?
Is that because if you take more like 2-4000mg of EGCG you will still absorb plenty even when something is lost when it binds to metals that are in the meal?
Yes, timing matters a lot if your goal is to use EGCG to reduce body iron stores (i.e., act as an iron chelator/reducer systemically).
Here’s exactly what happens depending on when you take EGCG relative to iron-containing food (especially heme iron from meat):
| Situation | What happens to iron absorption from the meal | What happens to systemic iron-chelation by EGCG | Net effect on body iron stores |
|---|---|---|---|
| EGCG taken with or right after a meat meal (e.g., 200–600 mg EGCG with steak) | Strongly blocks non-heme iron (up to 60–90 % reduction) and reduces heme iron absorption from meat by ~30–50 % (human studies show ~35–45 % lower iron uptake when 150–300 mg EGCG is consumed with the meal) | Very little EGCG reaches the bloodstream intact because most of it binds tightly to dietary iron in the gut and is excreted in feces | Good for preventing new iron absorption, but almost no systemic chelation of already-stored iron |
| EGCG taken on an empty stomach (at least 1–2 hours after eating and 1 hour before next food) | No dietary iron present → no binding in the gut | Much more free EGCG is absorbed into the blood (bioavailability can be 5–10× higher than when taken with food) → reaches liver, tissues, and can bind excess stored iron (ferritin, labile iron pool) and promote its excretion (mostly via bile/feces, some urine) | Much stronger systemic iron-chelation effect — this is what actually lowers ferritin over weeks/months |
Evidence Summary
- Human studies (Ullmann 2003, 2004) show that 150–300 mg EGCG with a meal cuts iron absorption from that meal by 35–45 % (heme + non-heme).
- When the same doses are taken fasting, plasma EGCG peaks 5–10 times higher and stays in circulation longer.
- Animal and cell studies show only the absorbed (not gut-bound) fraction of EGCG reduces liver iron, brain iron, and ferritin levels in iron-overload models.
- People using green tea extract therapeutically for hemochromatosis or high ferritin (under medical supervision) are specifically told to take it away from meals for maximum systemic effect.
Practical Recommendation if You Want EGCG to Chelate Excess Stored Iron
- Take your EGCG dose (e.g., 400–800 mg) first thing in the morning on an empty stomach with water only.
- Wait at least 1–2 hours before eating anything containing iron (meat, fortified cereal, etc.).
- If you also want to block iron from a specific high-iron meal later in the day, you can take an extra smaller dose (150–300 mg) with that meal, but the main high dose should still be fasting.
Bottom line: Taking EGCG with meat will protect you from absorbing the iron in that meat, but it will greatly reduce the amount of EGCG that gets into your blood to chelate your existing iron stores. For actual iron-reduction therapy (lowering ferritin), fasting dosing is far superior. Always do this under a doctor’s supervision with regular ferritin checks, because excessive iron removal can eventually cause deficiency.
@jiri Yeah the hg7 dose is 10 times higher than those studies, so I don't think it matters much. I and others have reduced iron, so it works out.
I know one person who takes small doses on that magnitude and is still improving over time. I don't think that person eats beef though.
I also change the ratios based on symptoms, so if I feel low egcg, I just add more. This self regulation takes care of such absorption and competition factors.
Heisenberg himself takes hg7 on an empty stomach, by the way. With meals is just more forgiving nausea wise, so people who don't like calibrating find that better.
@whatisaging Well yeah at the end of the day over time it will work anyway even just by blocking absorption from food. But I think you are right. That high dose will block everything from food and there will be still plenty of free EGCG for binding iron in the body..
Didn't know that Jacob is taking his huge doses on empty stomach that's crazy hehe.
Btw I plan to try just like 10% dose with 400mg EGCG(or 1 life extension green tea extract pill), 30mg zinc, 400-800mcg molybdenum. But I have only 10mg biotin capsules. Do you think it is a big deal If I take like 30-50mg instead of 250mg to get to that 10% dose of everything else? With that low dose EGCG it should be ok right.. Even 30-50mg is crazy huge dose for mainstream. People who take 400mg of EGCG don't take that much biotin and they are still ok probably..
Or at least most people hehe.. From some iherb reviews I can see that some ended up even hospitalized with crazy high liver enzymes just from 1 pill a day. Wonder what that is about...
@whatisaging yeah I believe in 100% dose may deplete biotin fast, but the dose I will take will be hopefully ok with the amount of biotin, but if you can tell me what symptoms I should be watching for from low biotin?
@jiri I don't think small doses will be immune from your necessary ratios, unless you're at <3% and are food-sized. I just did a 25mg b6 dose yesterday, and I still needed a high biotin ratio, 500mg. The symptom I get is tooth pain, and sometimes hair loss. Other people report nightmares as common. The full list:
Severe Anxiety, excessive hunger, nightmares, leg or foot cramps, index finger joint pain, hair thinning, back of scalp itchy, constipation, bulky stool, chest pain, migraine, acid reflux, smelly stool, excessively horny, tooth pain.
@whatisaging Well the thing is I was taking basically always last 25 years some B complex that had probably decent amount of B6 and just the standart dose of biotin like 100-300mcg if there even was any.. So the idea that I will start taking now 25mg of B6 with for me INSANE amounts of biotin(30-50mg) and I will start to develop serious biotin deficiency symptoms is kind of crazy to me. I think this goes for like 99% of people in fitness and who simply take multivitamins, B complexes...
Like everybody is taking the mainstream doses of B vits and basically nobody is taking biotin in doses like you guys do on HG7 heh.
I am not saying you are wrong. But if you are right I just need to experience it for myself.. If adding 1 pill of EGCG shoots my needs for biotin into those crazy numbers..
@jiri I think it's the full complex of HG7 that reveals the stored metals and need for biotin, not just B6. So you might be surprised. But I'm not saying it WILL happen, just that it might, and even at low doses. Your metal burden might look different from ours and not need as much biotin. The only way to find out is to try.