I needed to disable self sign-ups because I’ve been getting too many spam-type accounts. Thanks.
Oxalate poisoning conversation started up
I never paid attention to ray peat or heard of him til little g mentioned him
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25168533/
Oxalate content of food: a tangled web - PubMed
Results: Thirteen sources were identified, and 8 sources (6 Web sites and 2 applications) were used to construct figures for comparison of commonly listed foods. Oxalate content was extremely variable between various sources. Fruits with the widest observed range of oxalate included oranges (2.07-10.64 mg/100 g) and bananas (0-9.9 mg/100 g). Among vegetables, the oxalate contents of spinach (364.44-1145 mg/100 g), rhubarb (511-983.61 mg/100 g), and beets (36.9-794.12 mg/100 g) were most variable. Among nuts, the oxalate content of peanuts ranged from 64.57 to 348.58 mg/100 g, and pecans ranged from 4.08 to 404.08 mg/100 g.
Conclusion: Wide variations exist in the reported oxalate content of foods across several Web-based sources and smartphone applications, several of which are substantial and can have a sizable impact on the construction of a low oxalate diet. As dietary counseling has proven benefits, patients and caregivers should be aware of the heterogeneity that exists in the reported oxalate content of foods.
https://foodstruct.com/food/bananas
Banana nutrition: calories, carbs, GI, protein, fiber, fats
| Calories ⓘ | 89 kcal |
| Glycemic index ⓘ
|
48 (low) |
| Glycemic load | 15 (medium) |
| Insulin index ⓘ | 81 |
| Net Carbs ⓘ | 20 grams |
| Default serving size ⓘ | 1 cup, sliced (150 grams) |
| Acidity (Based on PRAL) ⓘ | -6.9 (alkaline) |
| Oxalates ⓘ | 20 mg |
Hi Jiri.
I love how we were all inculcated, cultured and trained to hear words like cult, conspiracy theory or guru and instantly believe we are dealing with brazen liars. Every organization you ever joined including and especially this one is by definition a cult. Every criminal investigation is by definition a conspiracy theory. Every guru is by definition a teacher, a sifu, a sensei, a student in good standing.
By experience and definition we are all wrong. We are all men and women. Zero of us gets out of this alive or right. Only one Being is ever right. The best we can hope for is to minimize how often and how much and how painfully we are wrong. I was wrong when I ate a standard American diet even as that cult, my family taught it to me. I was wrong when I ate dorm food in college as that educational cult planned it out for me. I was wrong when I studied and did my best at vegetarian diet and later vegan and fruitarian. I was wrong when I fasted and when I recovered using tiny easily digested meals of mostly meat broth. I was wrong when I struggled with, studied and recovered from gall stones, pancreatitis, cachexia, kidney stones, colitis, allergies, infections,.......
I was wrong when I recovered further using Zone diet and studied Barry Sears and Dave Scott and everyone who disagreed with them. I was wrong when I recovered further with paleo and then keto diet and read every author I could find on it and all the authors I could find criticizing it. I am certain I was wrong with low vA diet when Garrett helped me through my worst pain in 62 years with isotretinoin induced sacroiliitis.
I am certain that I am as naive as anyone including and especially you. The most brainwashed person in the room is the one who believes he is not. When you walk into a card game and you do not know who at the table is the patsy, then the patsy is you.
That all said, your logic is an excuse to limit your due diligence. Good luck with that. My due diligence is not done. I agree with you that Garrett is probably painfully wrong on MSG and zeolite and maybe niacin. I am far from wise enough nor smart enough until I at least know how and why that is the case. Having studied with Garrett and profited greatly, I bet I know far more about his weak points than you do. I am sure I know far more about his strengths. Characterizing him as you have amounts to a fancy sophisticated version of ad hominem.
If I sound harsh here it is not because I disagree with you. Mostly I agree. What I find harsh and worthy of sharp reply is dismissing anyone out of hand. Writing off excellent things anyone has done. I was hurting when I learned about fasting. Arnold Erhet's writings helped me. He was not the healthiest man to ever live. His fasting and vegetarian ideas probably contributed to his death. For the problems I had it helped me mightily. Fortunately for me, I recognized 40 years ago that following that paradigm indefinitely was a bad choice. That is when my doc, then and now, suggested I study POW rehabilitations after wars. I learned about pancreatic function and how before WWII American docs routinely killed rescued POW's by letting them eat at will. I learned to trickle feed and slowly rebuild my pancreas and enzyme production.
I had a boss who every time he got fired or hired or fired or hired anyone said, "I was looking for a job when I found this one. I will be looking for a job when I find my next." I am looking for my next paradigm now. Every paradigm shift I made in last 50 years was for good reason. Good luck with finding that "basic knowledge" that makes you not naive. Good luck finding that universal answer to all problems. Or that person you can trust. Good luck with avoiding rose colored glasses by wearing black lenses.
I think Garrett has tapped into Grant's greatest strength. The engineer's insistence of proof of concept. You think vA is a nutrient? Ok prove it. Oh look, plenty of science going back decades that more and more looks fraudulent? Ok well lets do some work on it today. Oh look, a guy 11 years into depleting a socalled essential nutrient and he is stronger, smarter, healthier than his previous 50 years? Alright. An n=1 easily disproves that theory. Now with such an obvious case of fraud in nutritional science, that makes the rest of nutritional science far more suspect.
I still do not know if vA is a nutrient or not. I do know which way I will bet if forced to at this moment. That makes me wonder about copper and all the rest. In the case of copper, it probably does not matter if it is a nutrient or not. The level of copper toxicity around us is staggering. Small wonder given all the environmental exposures around us. The chances of any of Garrett's clients being copper deficient are probably close to the chances that any will be glyphosate deficient. Interesting comparison. Did you know copper sulfate is used routinely in landscaping as herbicide? Did you know it is also used routinely in organic farming?
Unless and until you are in touch with those folk who follow Garrett, it might be wise to avoid characterizing any of them let alone all of them. First, it is offensive. Second, you might be talking to them sooner than you expect. Ironic that a couple of folk on Garrett's blog insisted Garrett ban me for arguing with them along these same lines about other health coaches / gurus. They were angry and insisted people like Shawn Baker, Ken Berry, Eric Berg, Tim Noakes,........... were all evil liars trying to kill people and profit from it.
Since I talk with those people and have for years, I know that they are also paradigm shifting too. I was keto before most of them and watched them come into their current paradigms. I am watching them as they learn now. Shawn Baker interviewed Thor Torrens even as his body language made it clear he did not want to. Thor did a good job and stayed open as I am here. Made it impossible for Shawn to dismiss low vA. Grant did similar with Judy Cho. Judy has come a long way in last 4 years. Now what do you think happens to the cult we call society when a few more people who are already much more famous, influential and affluent come around to low vA? What happens when Judy Cho, Shawn Baker, Tim Noakes, Robb Wolf, Gary Taubes, Nina Teicholz.............. all realize they need Grant's experience and knowledge? Do you want to be the guy who mocked them for the last 10 years?
They are not any more or less evil than you and me. They are jerks just like you and as this rant clarifies, me. Garrett can come around. I bet he will not for 6 or 12 months. Who knows? When he does come around and when we all come around, I prefer it be an easier and quicker transition. Paradigm shift. Got to love it.
Quote from Shannon on August 23, 2025, 9:16 am@Joe2 How do I join the calcium connection? Do I have to be invited? I didn't see where I could join or create a password. Thanks. Also if you want to post my comment about calcium and oxalates on there I don't mind.
DM your email address on twitter to @zendogbreath
Quote from Shannon on August 23, 2025, 9:26 amHey Joe,
Probably the reason little g blocked me on Twitter but not LYL is because I have a different name on Twitter. I think it was my comment on how people would get sick of his tunnel vision soon lol. Hey, this kind of hit me the other day after seeing his new Live on MSG. He also promotes guar gum (sun fiber). So is he really the Additive Operative for yet another psy-op?
Little g. Lil G. I like that. Sure he will too.
He will figure out both handles soon enough. Yeh. Have used his PHGG for years. Hard to tell efficacy on something like that. In theory,...........
I think his emphasis for at least 2 years has been to find patches / bandaids that get people through worst of detox process and closer to Grant's results. In January, 2023, he helped me cut my supplement and food costs by 95%. At the time, I saw what Grant was doing and said, I want to eliminate supplements and get food quality up like that and costs down like that. Garrett, Lil g completely agreed. At least for awhile there he went that direction too. Niacin flipped that on its head. He felt he needed to be the test pilot and megadose that to find out the downsides of dosing it. He has since done the same with zeolite and now MSG. He did it with charcoal, fiber and a few others before I started. Hard to reduce your flying time when you are busy test piloting.
I can tolerate that profit motive and that intake level in the name of research. What I found beyond the pale was how he handled calcium research and everyone involved. He is doing what he criticizes all the others of doing. Just like @jiri
said, he is banning everyone who criticizes and disagrees with him. Case in point is you on twitter. In your position, I would change my handle on LYL and go silent. Just get on there to lurk, and get through the lessons. I did a post for him awhile back on idioms. I probably already told you about it. He thought I was a fan and that it was flattering. He stands well corrected on the fan boi allegation. Doubt he groks efficacy over the flattery. We got everyone on LYL to post all of the idioms that he uses often. Every phrase he uses to summarize a paradigm.
Like newbies often ask if they can take more zinc to counter the extra copper they get in their daily chocolate bar. His idiom for that is "The poison always wins." So yeh you could take more zinc to counter the extra copper. But that is as dumb as taking more charcoal to adsorb some extra cyanide you want to eat. Sooner or later the cyanide will win that race.
So his book of idioms post got turned into livestreams explaining them. I wanted him to use the list to write a book. He may still. It is not flattery. It is a code that he is supposedly determined to heed. They are good lessons / rules in life and low vA. What those of us recently banned are banned for is noticing him violating his own stated code. Consider how Paul Saladino feels knowing how many copies of Carnivore Code are sitting on shelves like mine. How is Garrett going to feel about his book of idioms in 6 months or 12 months?
He is already violating his rules on duration paradox and "start low and go up slow" with zeolite. Those of us who continue to pay attention to him without dismissing him will get to see how it turns out and get an invaluable lesson from it. Hopefully we will still be in touch with enough folk still in LYL following his new rules that we can minimize the pain of those results too.
Quote from Shannon on August 23, 2025, 9:40 amI do have another question. Are people really megadosing calcium in droves out there? It annoys me that little g keeps making these sweeping generalizations to promote his own deal. I am just taking 600mg a day. His comment about people getting abuncha kidney stones is not realistic. Ive never had one but have crystals coming out every other organ it seems. For one thing not everyone is prone to them, for another we are not all burying our heads in the sand about oxalates. If you eat calcium with to below a certain threshold of oxalates you will not build up more crystals and if you never drop to zero oxalates you will not excrete them.
I am a few months in on calcium and have not come near the RDA yet. Guys are definitely doing less than the women. Especially childbearing breastfeeding women. Everyone is different by virtue of environment, history and their Mom's history.
600 mg daily is well below RDA, right? Yeh, just like Lil g's claim that he was attacked for not being 100% right 100% of the time on his calcium mea culpa intro. Zero people made that claim. Fewer people than that said much about his using research and experience from the people he banned before banning them to come up with his current stance on calcium and claiming it as his own. Even fewer, ok well maybe I did, complained about his megadosing and teaching others to megadose depending on circumstance and then attacking people for doing exactly what he taught them and instructed them to do. So yeh, you are picking up on his awareness of his being disingenuous. Hard to hide that in body language even from people who did not see the hypocritical act.
The likelihood of stones comes more from oxalates than from calcium. My take too is that calcium is needed to get the oxalates out. Oxalates are also endogenous for us. Am pretty confident we do not make them on the order that they come in to us in the average spinach quiche though. There is decent research too that some gut bacteria types break down oxalates. That explains why some people are fine eating large quantities. Another one of my guesses is that in order to have that bacteria, we need to have been eating oxalates too. Just like I lost all my bifido from over a decade of eating very low carbohydrate. Made me want to restart my carbohydrate intake very gradually.
There is a lot more going on here than just eat calcium get stones. Goes way beyond that. He knows it too. He also eliminated the group of females most experiecned and most studied on topic from LYL. Hope did not work on this in a vacuum. There is a lot more work to do. Given what we are seeing calcium is worth far more work now than niacin, zeolite and MSG combined. Lil g plainly disagrees. He also is committed to making those three his priority.
Quote from Shannon on August 23, 2025, 10:00 am@jiŕi
going back to muscle meat carnivore. Had too many migraines doing plants. My digestión is fine after 3 years and I am more energetic and alert without plants. Tried plants/ carbs for 7 months. I got too sleepy and wanted caffeine. Most people do great on carnivore. You just can't suddenly start eating a bunch of plants after you've done Carnivore for years. You have to add things back in slowly if you are going to and some foods you cannot add back in. I used to have galladder problems when I ate plants esp peppers and any plant oils except coconut. I have no gallbladder problems on carnivore.
I was same on keto/paleo. My worst gall stones and attacks were after years of lacto ovo vegetarian and then fruitarian. Took years of Zone diet (with not too much and just enough fat) to make my gall bladder happy again. Happiest during keto years - until - duhn duhn DUHN - my liver overflowed with WAPF vA. Even then my gall bladder did not complain much.
Hard part of transitioning off carnivore / keto is that other foods need to be slowly weaned back into the diet. Somewhere in there, when carbs get re-introduced, the body stops burning ketones altogether. For me it was any time I went over 300 calories of carbs in a day. 400 calories for sure. So if I was fine one week burning ketones with great energy and I was dumb enough to have a cheat day and eat couple pieces of pie with 3 big scoops of ice cream, count on it - ketones burned go to zero. At that point I am burning only carbohydrates. It takes way more than 500 calories of carbohydrates to get me through even the easiest day. Eve that big a dessert is probably not going to get it for the day. Hence the keto flu. We get stuck in limbo where we can not burn ketones because too much carbs and we can not get enough carbs to have enough energy and oh by the way, there are no glycogen stores since we burned ketones for the last few months.
So I started back from keto with apple first and added dates and prunes. Then added oatmeal. I did them all as gradually as I could and as fast as I could to minimize how much and how often I ran out of gas. Through it all, gall bladder has been happier than ever.
Quote from ItsMe on August 23, 2025, 10:20 amQuote from Shannon on August 23, 2025, 9:40 amI do have another question. Are people really megadosing calcium in droves out there? It annoys me that little g keeps making these sweeping generalizations to promote his own deal. I am just taking 600mg a day. His comment about people getting abuncha kidney stones is not realistic. Ive never had one but have crystals coming out every other organ it seems. For one thing not everyone is prone to them, for another we are not all burying our heads in the sand about oxalates. If you eat calcium with to below a certain threshold of oxalates you will not build up more crystals and if you never drop to zero oxalates you will not excrete them.
About 2-3 weeks ago on the lowtoxin forum (former ray peat forum) I read about the calcium 'epiphany'. I couldn't help but laugh and shake my head at that.
Ray Peat ,for years, had been going on about the benefits of calcium (and the ca:phos. ratio). Then when Smith started to possess the mind of its administrator, he suddenly started to advocate a lot of anti-Peat/pro-Smith things....and now,bc Smith says so, he's (and his 'disciples') acting as if calcium is the greatest discovery ever.
Wait. So they were pro-calcium then they were anti-calcium and now they are pro-calcium again?
I don't spend any brain cycles on Garrettt Smith. I think it is neat that Grant inspired him, and that he was open to that inspiration. Beyond that I don't really care because I'm not looking for a guru. I just went and read his tweets and some make sense to me, such as tattoos are probably horrible for your health.
I don't think lowering your Vitamin A intake is complicated. I don't think I will ever take it to any extreme because I'm done with that type of thing.
My husband has been prone to kidney stones and I have not, and the big difference between us is: he doesn't eat dairy. His ancestors ate dairy and he probably should too. Has his ability to digest dairy been destroyed entirely? If so, that is a bad thing and if a person can undo that intolerance (say, by eating tiny amounts of dairy over time) that person should do so. My mother had good luck with that.
One of the tenets of the stoics is to get back to normal as quickly as possible after a problem. IMO, people overdo their hatred of the Standard
American Diet here. That diet grew out of old-world habits and it probably isn't as bad as all that. If you can seek out less-tampered-with American foods they will probably get you through a normal life span. And of course the eat-the-rainbow thing is just wrong (for me) and not what my old-world ancestors ate at all.
I think happiness is an important, overlooked aspect to health. The less I think about food and supplements the better. There is more to life. When you are happy your body works better in every way. Feel-good hormones are like keys in the lock of health. Instead of looking up supplements, look up activities that increase your feel-good hormones 🙂
In general, everything we intake is somewhat dangerous for us. But here we are-- needing calories and hydration and air.
The topic of this thread is oxalates, and I also don't think reducing oxalates is complicated. I think they are just another case of "you know what? meat and white carb are our best friends, food wise!" Maybe oxalate issues also tell us: "and dairy, if it is an ancestral food, probably is a good friend too!". The rainbow is just for garnish.
Sometimes people might wonder why this list is so quiet and Garret Smith's lists are so noisy. It makes sense to me that people can come here, get a simple explanation, and then they don't need much after that. Why would someone stoke up drama? I'll let you answer that...
OK, we may get in to drama about eggs now and then hahah