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puddleduck’s progress (CFS symptoms)
Quote from Liz on April 4, 2023, 9:04 pmOh the recognition on most of what's stated above. I had horrible constipation as well on psyllium as only fibre source. Actually I think the eggs has helped but it took months, because now I still poop well (bristol 3-4) on "psyllium days". When adding beans, my rear end would explode (bristol 5-6) about 24h later. That has improved as well so I can have beans/lentils again and my gut once again loves them. I am not anal with the eggs though, some days I can have many, some days none. I had burning itchy legs last night which I haven't had in years, and it was some hours after a high ox meal (stupid bit I do test the waters from time to time to check for reactions) with dark chocolate and pistachio. I used to get that a lot while on Grant diet back in the day and I was convinced it was A burning through the skin, but now I am not sure about that at all, it seems to be oxalate related. Grants burning skin was cooked. Mine never was. Just normal skin color which felt like it was on fire when scratching the itch.
Do you count/measure ox per meal or day total? If I keep meals around 30 I feel great. Too low and too high per meal is a trigger.
Edit: forgot to add, Some girls on bean protocol got worse cramping the first few months and got better only after the third month and then kept on getting better and better. I get horrified when I notice my endo, which is very seldom thank goodness, and it makes me instantly believe what I just did triggered it and have to stop. Ugh, chronic diseaes sure are disabling and mind fucking on so many levels. So it helps reading sometimes it gets worse before it get better. As long as it gets better that is
Thank you so much for the ideas, @liz! I wasn’t spacing out my oxalate intake, and I do find that helpful. Thanks. 🙂 Reading about your experiences are super interesting...it’s such a mystery to figure out what culprit is behind what symptom!
At this point, the evidence seems to be pointing towards oxalate being the source of my rash, too. It’s just “itchy,” not “burn-y.” A rough, bumpy patch. Not at all “mushy” or “raw.”
I so agree with you that chronic illnesses are a total mindfuck...uggg. PJ was telling me about Udo Erasmus’s healing story (he was exposed to pesticides), and now he is in his 80s and thriving. I thought that was just as encouraging as Karen Hurd’s story about her daughter. 😊 You’re making progress, for sure.
3.5 Month Eggsperiment Update:
I was feeling so awful, I almost posted on May 1st that I had decided to quit the eggsperiment at the halfway point. 😅
But then some stuff happened, which is going to make this a reeaaally long update. You have been warned.
⚠️ TMI ⚠️ Poo Report
Constipation remained persistent, but less bipolar. Only one “detox dump” in April, with severely inadequate elimination on an almost daily basis otherwise; type 1 or 2, minuscule amounts a day (normal for me is footlong type 4s)...’twas bad...but sort of an improvement from March, I guess?
Egg Intake 🥚 🥚
Consumed 2 eggs per day on average in April, but there were days I ate none, and days I ate three. Switching it up made no difference whatsoever to the aforementioned constipation situation.
Fiber Frustrations
Was eating a minimum of two 3/4 cup servings of legumes (chickpeas, limas, or lentils) away from fats, every single day in April. Often ate three servings, sometimes I managed four.
Nevertheless, the “problem” persisted.
I stopped taking the psyllium and charcoal entirely, for obvious reasons.
EFAs
In April, I consumed between 2 and 4 tablespoons of cold-pressed high-omega-6 seed oil every day, along with 2 to 4 tablespoons of sunflower seeds and 2 to 4 tablespoons hemp hearts.
I also started eating fish (canned herring) once a week.
So far, I think the EFAs have:
- improved my energy and stamina (my meals with EFAs don’t seem to lead to “nap attacks”)
- improved my focus ever so slightly...I notice when I’m off-task a bit more often (lol)
- improved my skin (it’s feeling softer, more hydrated, less irritated)
- improved my sense of satiation and of being properly nourished (I feel I am growing less fragile, somehow?)
According to Brian Peskin, it can take 12 to 18 months to fully recover from an EFA deficiency, and 2 to 3 months to notice significant improvements.
Meal Prepping
In February and March, I had been eating the exact same breakfast and lunch every weekday (both were high-calorie meals, getting me to roughly 2,000 calories, as my typical daily intake is 2,500 to 3,500 calories):
Breakfast - homemade museli (oats, coconut, dates, raisins, sunflower seeds, pumpkin seeds, sucanut, coconut oil) with a fresh apple, hemp hearts or homemade “hemp milk,” and soft-boiled eggs
Lunch - fried rice (white parboiled rice) with onion, garlic, cabbage, ground beef, fish sauce, and eggs (rice fried in beef fat from ground beef)
In April, I stopped eating oats. They didn’t seem appetizing anymore.
So I would more often have:
Breakfast - banana and strawberry smoothie, with fresh hempseed “milk,” hemp oil, and a raw egg yolk.
Lunch - fried rice meal OR apple cabbage salad with sunflower seeds, pumpkin seeds, dried cranberries and EFA-oil dressing, with hardboiled eggs OR chicken and rice
In-between all meals I’d have a snack of beans (as often as my executive function co-operated).
Supper was typically a meal involving rice, potato (limited amounts due to oxalate), gluten-free noodles, legumes, or low-oxalate fruit with beef or chicken.
On weekends, we’d have gluten-free pancakes and homemade pasta (both made with white rice flour and chickpea flour).
🥛 Dairy
I didn’t eat dairy in April at all, and when I did have it in March it was a weekend “test meal” type deal.
Going Bananas 🥚 🥚 🥚 🥚 🥚 🥚 🥚 🥚 + 🍌 🍌 🍌 🍌 🍌
I was kinda fed up with how badly my gut was doing. It didn’t cause as much insomnia in April, but I definitely wasn’t sleeping well, and felt as though the eggs had pushed me into an uncomfortable limbo.
So I decided to go bananas...
I took a break from the eggs and fatty hamburger for a couple of days, and ate a TON of raw bananas, along with my 3 cups of legumes, apples, raw cabbage, the usual EFAs, dates, a couple figs, lemon, a pinch of ginger (basically a super soothing, high-fiber, high-vitamin C diet), and it turned my gut back into a practically perfect elimination station again within 24 hours.
It was SUCH a relief. 😂 And it made me want to completely stop the eggsperiment, for my own self-preservation.
But I was conflicted, because I wasn’t sure exactly why the eggs had caused so many problems.
Part of me feared the retinol and/or the orange pigments in the egg yolks had triggered inflammation in my gut, but what if it was something else? Were Jenny and Andrew right about choline’s power to support deeper detoxification or “other stuff” caught in the cells?”
I’d already mostly ruled out Dr. Smith’s cholestasis idea, because I have little evidence I have ever had cholestasis at any point. Back when he first started introducing lactoferrin, I wasn’t getting any reaction to it whatsoever, so I took 6 capsules abruptly and there were no negative side effects (I still take that much lactoferrin to support my immune system when I catch a bad virus, but I stopped taking any regularly because it didn’t improve my iron status). From what I understand, cholestatic individuals respond poorly to lactoferrin. (And I’m sure the cholestasis thing is a huge deal for many people! It’s just not every person’s problem.)
At the beginning of the month, my life coach suggested I sit in silence for a minute to allow my intuition to show me the path forward... And that is when I got the idea to “go bananas on eggs.”
Before I entirely quit the eggsperiment, I would see what side-effects might be triggered by eating 8 eggs + 5 bananas per day.
Eight eggs, because that is the number which would allow me to stay under the RDA for vitamin A.
Five bananas, because I thought maybe a grain-free, low-ish-in-oxalate source of carbohydrate high in vitamin B6 might help my gut and body cope with the eggs. Not sure that line of reasoning was all that...carefully considered...but that’s what I did. 😂
I only managed to stick with this odd regime for three days total, because I triggered the following unpleasant symptoms:
- the rash on my leg expanded and got worse, and another rash on my other leg popped up, too
- my head felt like it was entirely underwater...or in a glass bubble filled with water...such was the brain-fog
- my body felt mildly floaty and strange...walking on a trail through the woods felt dreamlike...my sense of direction was...atypically bad...(normally I lead the way, but on this day I followed)
- everything ached...my joints hurt, my shins hurt, my ankles hurt, my toes and fingers hurt, my back hurt (especially the kidney area), even my head and teeth kinda hurt!
- the spot on my finger where I’d had a tendon stitched due to an accident, was throbbing with pain...it felt like it had been smashed with a rock...
- my lungs were mildly irritated, too, and made me cough a little
- constipation hit hard
I was confounded. This didn’t feel like any cold or flu I’ve had in the past 5 years (not even that one). And it didn’t feel like I’d gotten too much vitamin A either, although I supposed it must be that...
And then a video from Chris Masterjohn popped up on my YouTube homepage:
[goes to get that video to post below]
[three month update continued]
What Chris proposed in the video, “Can Biotin Help Detoxify Oxalate?,” utilizing his biochemist wizardry, was that biotin (vitamin B7) may not only protect the body from excess oxalate accumulation, but may also directly detoxify oxalate! This would lead, in some cases, to an “oxalate dump.”
Biotin is found in eggs. Eight eggs contains nearly 300% of the AI (adequate intake) for biotin.
Did this mean I had triggered a major oxalate dump? And was this why I hadn’t been able to tolerate the multi-B vitamin supplements? (Yes, I checked, the one I tried did contain biotin, LOTS of biotin.) And also why the eggsperiment had been so miserable?
I was excited to finally have what felt like an accurate explanation.
But one intelligent member of Dr. Smith’s network wondered why I would be so responsive to such a small amount of biotin (relative to the amounts found in supplements), considering I was already consuming biotin in legumes?
She had an excellent point, so I will now attempt maths. (I was unschooled, so please proceed with caution through that section, lol.)
“Adequate Intake”
Unfortunately, my chronometer thinggy doesn’t include the biotin content of most foods. This is because there is a lack of solid data on this topic.
Insofar as what constitutes an “adequate intake” of biotin, countries vary:
“The AI [Adequate Intake] biotin has been set at 50 μg in DRIs 2010 for Japanese (13) and 30 μg for Americans (35). However, the Estimated Average Requirement (EAR) of biotin is not set as of yet in either country, because evidence concerning the dietary intake of biotin is not complete, and some optimized parameters to evaluate the state of biotin deficiency are not defined and established. As almost all foods analyzed in Himeji study are fresh and raw, the amount of cooking loss and the destroy of biotin by processing with a food processor remain unclear. More studies on the bioavailability of biotin in the gastrointestinal tract will be needed.”
-Biotin content table of select foods and biotin intake in Japanese (2014)
Found here: https://plaza.umin.ac.jp/~e-jabs/2/2.109.pdf
I am going to assume the American AI is inadequate. (No offense Americans, I love y’all, but the Japanese eat better. 🇺🇸❤️)
TLDR MATHS (✨ related to science ✨)
From white rice and beef alone, I’d typically get between 11.6 μg and 19.9 μg biotin, depending how meat and starch heavy my diet was (roughly 1/2 to 1 cup dry white rice + roughly 1/3 to 1 cup ground beef).
Source: https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/biotin-HealthProfessional/
There is no biotin in added coconut oil or sugar, which I used to increase my caloric intake without increasing oxalate.
Museli or apple salad would add at least 2 or 3 more μg biotin.
That puts me at 22.9 μg biotin as a baseline, without legumes or eggs.
Since lowering my oxalate intake to between 50 mg and 150 mg per day in November 2022, I was consuming lots of white rice crackers and slacking on beans. If I ate baked goods, they would’ve been homemade with white rice and chickpea flour, but I wasn’t focusing on Karen Hurd at that point, so 3 cups of chickpeas or lima beans wasn’t an everyday thing. I was eating an estimated average of 1 cup legumes daily, though.
I haven’t yet figured out if anyone knows precisely how much biotin is in legumes, but I may end up buying access to Chris Masterjohn’s Substack articles so I can see what he says about them.
The 2014 paper from Japan (linked earlier) gives three different amounts of biotin for lima beans, and four different amounts of biotin for chickpeas. Each sample is grown and tested in different parts of the world (possibly different soil and agricultural methods have an effect on nutrient levels).
LIMA BEANS, DRY, 1 CUP = 178 g = between 5.3 μg biotin (lowest number given) and 17.4 μg biotin (highest number given)
CHICKPEAS, DRY, 1 CUP = 200 g = between 18 μg biotin (lowest number given) and 51 μg biotin (highest number given)
One cup of dry legumes, turns into roughly 3 cups cooked:
LIMA BEANS, COOKED, 1 CUP = between 1.8 μg biotin and 5.8 μg biotin
CHICKPEAS, COOKED, 1 CUP = between 6 μg biotin and 17 μg biotin
Adding one cup of chickpeas to my baseline daily intake, would result in: 28.9 μg to 39.9 μg biotin
I may have left out a couple relevant foods, such as mustard. One tablespoon of prepared mustard contains 3.6 μg biotin (protip: mustard is good with eggs—I put in on my 8-egg-salad lol—and Ray’s Mustard is stone-ground without heat processing: https://rayesmustard.com/collections/all-mustard have to plug ‘em, ‘cause they’re great.)
I use maybe a couple teaspoons of mustard in a salad, which is another 2.4 μg biotin, but wasn’t eating that every day of the eggsperiment. I mention it because my daily number will be slightly higher, depending on variations such as this. Let’s add 5 μg biotin extra, to account for such.
/TLDR MATHS SUMMARY
Baseline Daily Intake (low oxalate): 33.9 μg to 44.9 μg biotin
Plus Four Eggs: 73.9 μg to 84.9 μg biotin
Plus Eight Eggs: 113.9 μg to 124.9 μg biotin
With the AI being between 30 μg biotin, and 50 μg biotin, it doesn’t seem as though I’d be all that deficient in biotin to begin with, especially when eating a higher oxalate diet with brown rice and a greater quantity of legumes (the combination of which likely contains more biotin than the white rice and beef combination).
However, 4+ eggs daily does increase the intake pretty substantially regardless, so I feel this explanation holds up (at least in my case).
I would like to read Chris Masterjohn’s biotin article at some point when I have the time. He proposes there are individuals with a higher genetic need for biotin than average intake suggests.
Bile Dumping vs. Oxalate Dumping
On Dr. Smith’s network, I have noticed a trend towards fearing beans, and therefore understandably lowering consumption of said beans in favor of a non-nutritive fiber supplement, for one of two main reasons:
1. Beans may contain “too much copper” leading to anxiety, among other potential “high copper symptoms.”
2. Beans may contain “too much soluble fiber” leading a “toxic bile dump.”
If Chris Masterjohn’s biotin hypothesis is applicable to some others recovering from chronic hypervitaminosis A, there may a third and fourth category to add to the complexity of the list:
3. Some beans may contain “too many oxalates” leading to “oxalate overload symptoms.”
4. Some beans may contain “an adequate amount of biotin” (among other B vitamins) leading to increased “detoxification of oxalate.”
Not sure if the oxalates in the beans themselves would somehow prevent the biotin from acting as powerfully as the biotin in eggs (supposing this idea is accurate), or whatever... I’m just in awe of how powerful a food can be and open to such possibilities.
What Next: Pulsing Eggs?
I don’t think my 8-eggs-per-day eggsperiment is over yet. 🤔
Even though the joint pain hasn’t entirely subsided (it is day 3 of stopping eggs), my head and lungs are clearing such that I feel like a bed with freshly washed sheets. The eggs did what a cold seems to do, but better—clean house!
Since what I believe to be “oxalate dumping” is even more unpleasant than a cold, I am going to stop the eggs for a full week, and then try again to see if I can replicate the “dump.”
Oh right—I’ve been out of calcium and magnesium for the past couple months, and apparently those are minerals which help with oxalate removal... Opps. 🙃 So I’ll see if that makes a difference then, too.
Jenny Is Right About B Vitamins, Among Other Stuffs 🟡🧘♀️☀️
I know Jenny is trying to stay off the computer, so I won’t tag her, but she was the one urging all of us to remember how important the B vitamins are to detoxification (and to preventing or ameliorating the detox setback).
So I just wanted to mention I have been thinking of her with gratitude as I contemplated all of this.
I am open to hearing alternative explanations and to contradictory evidence. My sense about this may be wrong.
I will try to do the 8-egg “pulse” a few more times this month, and report back sometime in June. If anyone has an idea they’d like me to test during a “pulse” please feel welcome to let me know.
Hope y’all have a great summer! 😎☀️
@puddleduck Thanks for your update. After Grant reposted the patent re trans retinoic acid I slightly shifted thinking that the biotin and choline were working synergistically to improve vitamin A detox (Meri Arthur thinks the oxalates may indeed be Vitamin A people are experiencing). There's also phosphatidylcholine, selenium and iodine in eggs so quite a detox package of nutrients. It's best to slightly heat egg whites in my opinion because of the avidin which binds to biotin. I do think you are improving bile flow from the liver (too much) and that is giving the symptoms. Improving bile flow would imply there was cholestasis as well. I still think it's best to go slow and steady given you appear to have leakiness. I still have leakiness after choline replenishment and digestion fixed and other things (after year of 3-4 eggs) and there's nothing to suggest increasing the eggs will speed up the healing process which might be going back decades. It could be what you are doing with the fats/oils may be a factor in healing leaky cell membranes. It's definitely your eggsperiment though so proceed how you see fit 🙂
Thanks so much for sharing your perspective, @andrew-b! 🙂
If you’re right about the cholestasis in my case, that means this vitamin A detox process can take a ridiculously long time... 😅 It does make sense to me there are multiple things happening all at once, though. I would love to achieve a sustainable balance with the eggs, if I can somehow mitigate the side-effects...
Oh yes, I cooked all the egg whites. 👍 Important point!
Thanks again. 😁☀️
Nice observations @puddleduck. You have officially earned the Nutrition Detective title!
Your pee deserves scrutinization as well. Out of curiosity, during the oxalate dumping did notice cloudy urine?
Quote from PJ on May 10, 2023, 10:48 amNice observations @puddleduck. You have officially earned the Nutrition Detective title!
Your pee deserves scrutinization as well. Out of curiosity, during the oxalate dumping did notice cloudy urine?
Im curious about the cloudy urine too.
I ate a few eggs last night and today I had foamy urine and fun ole fatigue has set in like clockwork. Definitely feels like a dump of sorts and happens periodically out of the blue.
Yes! Funky and cloudy urine, for sure, @pattycake! ETA: and @armin, too! Sorry I didn’t see your post before I replied. How interesting!
Chris Masterjohn suggested I try to verify my results by taking a similar amount of pure biotin. (My face like “doh!”) Of course scientists are smart like that. 😂 That’ll be the next test.
I tried some EFA oil with a baked potato and had cloudy urine.