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Pufas
Quote from
Даниил on July 18, 2021, 4:54 pm
I must warn anyone against using PUFA. If you see temporary positive effects , it does not mean that it is something good. I think that PUFAs increase estrogen, which slows down the elimination of VA (https://ggenereux.blog/discussion/topic/vitamin-a-in-plasma-rises-when-estrogen-rises/). Therefore, you can see an improvement in symptoms. Many symptoms associated with VA toxicity, such as acne and hair loss, are treated with estrogenic prepparates. Some people also see improvements after vitamin A supplements.
My personal experience suggests the opposite. As a child, I was fat, and now I'm quite thin, and the ONLY thing I did to lose weight was to stop adding sunflower oil to all products. I also took huge doses of vitamin A and did not notice anything, but I started having problems with toxicity after fish oil supplements.
Damn, the harm of PUFA is actually an ordinary school chemistry. And if you think about it, Ray didn't make some scientific breakthrough by saying that PUFA is evil... The more double bonds - the easier it is to oxidize fat - the greater the lipid peroxidation. Next, in Pubmed, you are looking for "lipid peroxidation + any disease" and find something interesting.
I must warn anyone against using PUFA. If you see temporary positive effects , it does not mean that it is something good. I think that PUFAs increase estrogen, which slows down the elimination of VA (https://ggenereux.blog/discussion/topic/vitamin-a-in-plasma-rises-when-estrogen-rises/). Therefore, you can see an improvement in symptoms. Many symptoms associated with VA toxicity, such as acne and hair loss, are treated with estrogenic prepparates. Some people also see improvements after vitamin A supplements.
My personal experience suggests the opposite. As a child, I was fat, and now I'm quite thin, and the ONLY thing I did to lose weight was to stop adding sunflower oil to all products. I also took huge doses of vitamin A and did not notice anything, but I started having problems with toxicity after fish oil supplements.
Damn, the harm of PUFA is actually an ordinary school chemistry. And if you think about it, Ray didn't make some scientific breakthrough by saying that PUFA is evil... The more double bonds - the easier it is to oxidize fat - the greater the lipid peroxidation. Next, in Pubmed, you are looking for "lipid peroxidation + any disease" and find something interesting.
Quote from
Даниил on July 18, 2021, 4:58 pm
By the way, a significant part of the symptoms of retinoic acid toxicity is mediated by prostaglandins. And the only substrate for their synthesis is linoleic acid (from sunflower oil).
By the way, a significant part of the symptoms of retinoic acid toxicity is mediated by prostaglandins. And the only substrate for their synthesis is linoleic acid (from sunflower oil).
Quote from
Kurtis on July 19, 2021, 3:24 am
It would be interesting to see the amount of double bonds in foods, more specifically from molecules that are fat soluble, compare say a carrot with an avocado, avocado will have more from the pufa/mufa but carrots will have a lot from carotenoids, I wonder which has more in total. Also it's curious as to why Ray Peat didn't think to generalize the molecular aspects of pufa to other molecules, this is one of the big reasons I believe in the VA toxicity hypothesis
I also wonder which is a more damaging structure, a single tail of double bonds like in fatty acids or unsaturated aromatic rings?
It would be interesting to see the amount of double bonds in foods, more specifically from molecules that are fat soluble, compare say a carrot with an avocado, avocado will have more from the pufa/mufa but carrots will have a lot from carotenoids, I wonder which has more in total. Also it's curious as to why Ray Peat didn't think to generalize the molecular aspects of pufa to other molecules, this is one of the big reasons I believe in the VA toxicity hypothesis
I also wonder which is a more damaging structure, a single tail of double bonds like in fatty acids or unsaturated aromatic rings?
Quote from
Даниил on July 19, 2021, 3:56 am
Quote from
Kurtis on July 19, 2021, 3:24 am
It would be interesting to see the amount of double bonds in foods, more specifically from molecules that are fat soluble, compare say a carrot with an avocado, avocado will have more from the pufa/mufa but carrots will have a lot from carotenoids, I wonder which has more in total. Also it's curious as to why Ray Peat didn't think to generalize the molecular aspects of pufa to other molecules, this is one of the big reasons I believe in the VA toxicity hypothesis
I also wonder which is a more damaging structure, a single tail of double bonds like in fatty acids or unsaturated aromatic rings?
Obviously, PUFA is worse, because you can eat several tens of grams of them in one sitting, and with carrots you will get several milligrams, and with avocado it will be about micrograms. Therefore, it is logical that Ray does not worry much about this. Ray said that carotenoids are bad and advised not to eat sweet potatoes.
But since we are all here, apparently there is something that makes carotenoids much more toxic.
Quote from
Kurtis on July 19, 2021, 3:24 am
It would be interesting to see the amount of double bonds in foods, more specifically from molecules that are fat soluble, compare say a carrot with an avocado, avocado will have more from the pufa/mufa but carrots will have a lot from carotenoids, I wonder which has more in total. Also it's curious as to why Ray Peat didn't think to generalize the molecular aspects of pufa to other molecules, this is one of the big reasons I believe in the VA toxicity hypothesis
I also wonder which is a more damaging structure, a single tail of double bonds like in fatty acids or unsaturated aromatic rings?
Obviously, PUFA is worse, because you can eat several tens of grams of them in one sitting, and with carrots you will get several milligrams, and with avocado it will be about micrograms. Therefore, it is logical that Ray does not worry much about this. Ray said that carotenoids are bad and advised not to eat sweet potatoes.
But since we are all here, apparently there is something that makes carotenoids much more toxic.
Quote from
Alastair on July 19, 2021, 2:08 pm
Quote from
Daniil on July 18, 2021, 4:54 pm
I must warn anyone against using PUFA. If you see temporary positive effects , it does not mean that it is something good. I think that PUFAs increase estrogen, which slows down the elimination of VA (https://ggenereux.blog/discussion/topic/vitamin-a-in-plasma-rises-when-estrogen-rises/). Therefore, you can see an improvement in symptoms. Many symptoms associated with VA toxicity, such as acne and hair loss, are treated with estrogenic prepparates. Some people also see improvements after vitamin A supplements.
My personal experience suggests the opposite. As a child, I was fat, and now I'm quite thin, and the ONLY thing I did to lose weight was to stop adding sunflower oil to all products. I also took huge doses of vitamin A and did not notice anything, but I started having problems with toxicity after fish oil supplements.
Damn, the harm of PUFA is actually an ordinary school chemistry. And if you think about it, Ray didn't make some scientific breakthrough by saying that PUFA is evil... The more double bonds - the easier it is to oxidize fat - the greater the lipid peroxidation. Next, in Pubmed, you are looking for "lipid peroxidation + any disease" and find something interesting.
My experience also. I got vit A toxicity after following the teachings of Udo Erasmus, ie using cold pressed flaxseed oil for omega 3 & cold pressed sunflower oil for omega 6, at the same time as drastically reducing saturated fats. This with supplementing vit A and eating liver twice a week (no dairy or eggs) for 3 years made me very vit A toxic, to the point where I got intercranial hypertension. However, I was eating liver & supplementing vit A for many years before this without getting this toxic. I am convinced now that PUFA's, even the 'undamaged' ones, hinder the excretion of vit A and saturated fats (especially animal fat with cholesterol from ruminant animals) promote the excretion of vit A.
Quote from
Daniil on July 18, 2021, 4:54 pm
I must warn anyone against using PUFA. If you see temporary positive effects , it does not mean that it is something good. I think that PUFAs increase estrogen, which slows down the elimination of VA (https://ggenereux.blog/discussion/topic/vitamin-a-in-plasma-rises-when-estrogen-rises/). Therefore, you can see an improvement in symptoms. Many symptoms associated with VA toxicity, such as acne and hair loss, are treated with estrogenic prepparates. Some people also see improvements after vitamin A supplements.
My personal experience suggests the opposite. As a child, I was fat, and now I'm quite thin, and the ONLY thing I did to lose weight was to stop adding sunflower oil to all products. I also took huge doses of vitamin A and did not notice anything, but I started having problems with toxicity after fish oil supplements.
Damn, the harm of PUFA is actually an ordinary school chemistry. And if you think about it, Ray didn't make some scientific breakthrough by saying that PUFA is evil... The more double bonds - the easier it is to oxidize fat - the greater the lipid peroxidation. Next, in Pubmed, you are looking for "lipid peroxidation + any disease" and find something interesting.
My experience also. I got vit A toxicity after following the teachings of Udo Erasmus, ie using cold pressed flaxseed oil for omega 3 & cold pressed sunflower oil for omega 6, at the same time as drastically reducing saturated fats. This with supplementing vit A and eating liver twice a week (no dairy or eggs) for 3 years made me very vit A toxic, to the point where I got intercranial hypertension. However, I was eating liver & supplementing vit A for many years before this without getting this toxic. I am convinced now that PUFA's, even the 'undamaged' ones, hinder the excretion of vit A and saturated fats (especially animal fat with cholesterol from ruminant animals) promote the excretion of vit A.
Даниил has reacted to this post.
Quote from
Max on July 19, 2021, 3:10 pm
Quote from
Alastair on July 19, 2021, 2:08 pm
I am convinced now that PUFA's, even the 'undamaged' ones, hinder the excretion of vit A and saturated fats (especially animal fat with cholesterol from ruminant animals) promote the excretion of vit A.
Is there any research backing this up? Would be awesome, because animal fat is the only fat I like to consume. I mean it would make sense since evolutionary animal fat would be our main fat source.
Quote from
Alastair on July 19, 2021, 2:08 pm
I am convinced now that PUFA's, even the 'undamaged' ones, hinder the excretion of vit A and saturated fats (especially animal fat with cholesterol from ruminant animals) promote the excretion of vit A.
Is there any research backing this up? Would be awesome, because animal fat is the only fat I like to consume. I mean it would make sense since evolutionary animal fat would be our main fat source.
Quote from
Alastair on July 19, 2021, 3:54 pm
@max-3
This is based on my experience more than science. I use beef tallow a lot now (we call it 'dripping' here in the UK), I don't consume any dairy fat because it contains vit A, and in the past has caused me health problems. Funnily enough though, some low vit A followers claim to do well using butter.
My latest beliefs on which fats are healthy and which are toxic come from the writings of Ray Peat. He has some rather eccentric ideas on nutrition, but I believe him to be correct on the toxicity of PUFA's. If you go to his site at raypeat.com and read his various articles on PUFA's, fats and oils, somewhere amongst them is a statement along the lines of 'PUFA's have the power to break vitamin A and thyroid hormones from their respective binding proteins'. He quotes many studies to back up his work if you want to go into that.
@max-3
This is based on my experience more than science. I use beef tallow a lot now (we call it 'dripping' here in the UK), I don't consume any dairy fat because it contains vit A, and in the past has caused me health problems. Funnily enough though, some low vit A followers claim to do well using butter.
My latest beliefs on which fats are healthy and which are toxic come from the writings of Ray Peat. He has some rather eccentric ideas on nutrition, but I believe him to be correct on the toxicity of PUFA's. If you go to his site at raypeat.com and read his various articles on PUFA's, fats and oils, somewhere amongst them is a statement along the lines of 'PUFA's have the power to break vitamin A and thyroid hormones from their respective binding proteins'. He quotes many studies to back up his work if you want to go into that.
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