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Push/Pull of protein and fat…but where do carbs stand?
I’m probably oversimplifying processes here, or blatantly misunderstanding them, but…
Protein
If proteins and zinc are needed to generate RBP and move Vitamin A around the body, and the liver’s reaction to overflowing stores of Vitamin A is to try to send it out into the body, then doesn’t eating a bunch of meat result in Vitamin A getting transported around the body, causing inflammation wherever it lands? This just occurred to me because I’ve been trying a low-fat version of carnivore and it seems to be making my symptoms worse. However, maybe I would be feeling better if I actually had fat stores for that Vitamin A to get stored in...I don’t think I’ve got hardly any body fat on me after being on a carnivore-ish diet for a year now (never really did have much body fat in the first place).
As I mentioned in a previous post, maybe the guy in that case study who presented with no symptoms despite extremely high levels of Vitamin A in his liver didn’t actually get the Vitamin A out of his body after eating more protein. Maybe the protein just shuttled the Vitamin A out of his liver and into fat stores around his body. The report said he gained a lot of weight in a short period of time, and it sounds like far too much weight to have been muscle…more likely to have been fat.
This might also explain @michele ‘s experience with a fruitarian diet. In the absence of protein and zinc, the excess Vitamin A in her peripheral tissues may have been depleted and there was no more coming from the liver because she was low on RBP and/or zinc from eating a diet devoid of animal foods. Whatever Vitamin A she had stored up may have remained relatively silently in her liver.
Fat
If Garrett Smith is right in saying that saturated fat brings Vitamin A back to liver, that might explain why I seemed to improve in some ways on a high-fat carnivore diet while feeling worse in other ways (major GI distress with chronic watery diarrhea, cherry angioma outbreaks, sunspots/liver spots), and why I eventually started getting fat malabsorption when my body decided to protect the liver from further harm by not allowing any more fat and fat-soluble vitamins to come in.
Carbs
But what, if any, effect do carbs have on Vitamin A transport and elimination? Can they be used to speed up glucuronidation in any way?
I’m starting to feel like I’m screwed any way I try to eat. Too much protein and I get system wide inflammation. Too much fat and I kill my liver and my intestines. Too much glucose and my energy levels are on a roller coaster. Too much fructose and I slow my liver down. Too many whole plant foods and I bog the liver down with secondary compounds and ask for intestinal trouble.
Maybe it’s time to start pounding down some SAD hyperpalatable foods and put some weight on to stash that Vitamin A?!
This is no fun anymore 🙁
I don't think you should get inflammation from protein, maybe do blood tests for iron & copper status if you're eating carnivore
That being said I had next to no energy on a carnivore diet period, so carbs are a must for me, fat is neither here no there but I generally avoid high intake
I feel your pain, Wavy!
I think an easy answer, or plausible thing to try is: look to Grant's diet? It's quite magically perfect, sometimes, LOL. (not that I've ever been on it). (it just seems to me that it is quite bulletproof when it comes to the various issues)
On another thread, I was asking for info about ascites. (swelling that acompanies liver damage) I posted a few things about this including a study of a small child who got ascites from VA overload, and Dr. Berg's suggestions to get rid of ascites. I think it is interesting that Dr. Berg called for a very moderate diet. Not high in carbs, not high in proteins, not high in fats. He also mentions IF, which is something I don't think hubs and I are up to, but I can see how skipping a meal a day might lessen the burden of detoxification. I want hubs and I to at least give up snacking. I think Dr. Berg's point about 3 years for fixing it is well taken here, as we know such changes are not swift.
https://ggenereux.blog/discussion/topic/big-list-of-toxicity-detox-symtoms/#postid-13796
I've often wondered if things are harder on people whose bodies don't easily put on adipose in which to store VA. I seem to come from those type of people and am one myself. Is that why I will just go into "everything must go" mode if I overdo? Thanks to Grant I at least know how to stop that uncomfortable happening. I've actually gained a bit on lowered VA.
I kind of expected to have less energy on lean carnivore, but I'm not sure that's actually the case.
I wasn't suggesting that protein is inherently inflammatory, I was suggesting that protein (and minerals from protein) can lead to inflammation in the presence of Vitamin A toxicity due to the movement of excess Vitamin A around the body.
My interpretation really hinges on a question that I've still not had fully answered: why did so many of my symptoms of Vitamin A toxicity first appear or worsen only AFTER I adopted a low Vitamin A diet?
My followup question is then: is it better to keep all the excess VA in the liver (e.g. by reducing protein and mineral intake), to get it out of the liver and into the peripheral tissues where it often causes symptoms, or to put on additional body fat so it gets stored "safely" until the liver is ready for it?
It seems like the worst symptoms that showed up are around my head: receding and burning gums (but they don't bleed), burning roof of mouth, swollen eyelids, oily upper eyelids and around eyes, dry and painful eyes, dryness/dermatitis around outer corner of eyes, dry flaky skin on forehead, issues related to brain fog or other mental function. Considering that one of the primary sites of regular Vitamin A activity is the eyes, and that most of the fat on my body is probably around my eyes and in my brain, it seems like my high protein intake has sent Vitamin A into the only fat tissue my body can find and is causing symptoms by doing so. I've also had fingernail and toenail problems pop up, and it sounds like the hands and feet also contain a large proportion of the fat found on a lean body.
At some point it became my theory that all of the crap we go through (like the new patch of roughness between my nose and mouth) are detox symptoms. For instance, I have a few little raised areas on my forehead that I know still need to "bubble away" before they will die down for good. I've seen the progression of this "bubbling" come across my cheeks to the point where they are almost finished. I feel like my gums/teeth are still detoxing, and my lips as well. Behind my ears.
Now, your point about the fruitarian diet sending VA to the liver is well taken, and might be a way of handling things in which this sort of "send the bad VA to the surface and out" doesn't happen. Especially if the liver is not already ragged with scar tissue. (like livers of those who have ascites). However if the liver is toasted, you may not have that option.
In my opinion, VA is trying to get out of my body any way the body can send it. Every earwax, booger, sweat bead, eye goop, fingernail that falls away is work being done (in parallel). I think this *in parallel* thing might be quite important. Especially if it is "quick and dirty". Think of computers. You can do a lot more in "quick and dirty parallel" than if everyone gets in line for one long, multi-step, arduous process.
I have that pet theory that alcohol sends VA circulating (for good or bad). I wonder if moderate alcohol usage spares the liver because of it. But maybe at the expense of other tissues.
As for fiber, which you talked about on another thread, I feel it is helping me be cleaner in the colon. I'm all about clean. (hubs will tell you that before this VA toxicity thing, I was not a neat freak) Strangely enough, dropping coffee has made for less messy, sticky BM's. Everything that leaves is good in my book.
Your ideas about the VA being sent to the head area in a lean person make a lot of sense to me!
Sometimes it seems to me that we all show up here with our ideas of what constitutes a good way of life. Let's call that the square peg. Then, the realities of VA detox descend. Let's call that the round hole. And it can be kind of embarrassing when our loved ones see us suddenly change on a dime.
And at least we finally know why all these various detox methodologies were invented (and some of them are ancient). In the past we might have written some of them off as unnecessary or even bad.
I went years, for instance, not using shampoo. Hey, "there was no shampoo in the garden of Eden," I said. Now if, as you say, VA was going to my head... was that smart? During my hot-water rinses, were the VA-ladened oils running down back behind my ears.causing inflammation that I used to have to hit with antibiotic ointment every couple of months or so to stave off infection? Would it have been much better to strip the oils out of my hair and have them go down the drain? Even if that meant replacing those oils?
Another for instance: I can now see how the diabetic I used to talk to at the farmer's market actually felt better on his low-fat diet. At the time, I just thought he was deluded. But he did seem pretty well for a diabetic!
I could see how the fiber would bind up any excess bile acids that might otherwise cause loose stool and make you feel "cleaner". I should reiterate, I know fiber has utility for certain conditions, I just think people get way too carried away with it without considering the detrimental side.
I need to dig up this concept I found regarding charcoal pulling toxins from the blood into the intestines without the charcoal ever being in the intestines itself. If charcoal can actually do that, and charcoal is basically just crisped insoluble plant fiber, then I suppose it's possible that fiber could do the same thing. Consuming charcoal seems to take the weird sensations in my sinuses up a notch and give me other issues when trying to sleep...it certainly seems like it's doing something, hopefully beneficial. I don't think I've noticed the same thing from psyllium husk or acacia fiber though.
Charcoal has some magical qualities, I'm not sure all of which we understand! It makes plants grow. Have you ever read about terra preta? That being said, I don't take it. Mostly because I don't trust supps anymore! I can remember even as a child with my terrarium putting a layer of charcoal in. It keeps things sweeter (many terrariums will go moldy). I do put charcoal in my garden... so far I've experimented very little in my gut. Maybe I should try it more. We are carbon-based life forms...