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Rachel's log
Thanks for all the replies. Lots for me to think about. I will definitely give choline a try once xmas is out of the way. I do feel that the detox has damaged my gut and fixing that is my priority.
You have given me a lift and I very much appreciate your support.
Thank you!
@rachel I have had similar issues, I don't know what was really causing it, too fast detox or an underlaying issue that just got worse with more fiber or maybe a little vitamin A, choline in the gut prevents this from happening in some susceptible people, I don't really know. I would try to get tested for SIBO, this can cause so many issues and gets worse and worse with fiber. Depending on the type of bacteria that is out of whack you could have either diarrhea or constipation, bloating, pain in the gut, brain fog and the list goes on. I have now finally confirmed I have sibo with a Hydrogen/Methane breath test, I have the methane kind which causes constipation and all sort of issues in the gut.
The two daily eggs are helping so much, reducing fermentable fibers for a period of time would also help, basically low FODMAPs, you want to do this for short period only though, I added sunfiber too, which is a low fodmap fiber. No snacking, leaving at least 4 hours between meals, intermittent fasting, working on improving motility (even if you have diarrhea research indicates improving motility specially in the small intestine will help), things that will help the Migrating Motor Complex of the small intestine, google "ILU" Self-Massage of the belly. All these things could help the gut.
I was taking sunflower lecithin but I had to stop because my sleep got disrupted so now just the two eggs with Greek extra virgin olive oil and a tablespoon of balsamic vinegar (this is because if you have sibo and this bacteria is converting the choline into TMAO then the eggs choline might just to waste :(, I rather no take my chances).
Thanks Luisa,
I've tested for SIBO in the past with no significant problems but that was several years ago and who knows what has changed.
I would like to better understand what you mentioned regarding certain bacteria converting choline into TMAO. Is the vinegar to counter that? Are you able to point me to a website or other source where I can read up on this? I don't think my gut will cope with vinegar at the moment but I would like to have a better understanding of the various issues.
I do try not to snack so I usually have a good four hours between meals. Nice to have something covered 🙂 Despite my increasing gut problems my bowels have actually improved, though they're still not great, so it's not all bad. I rarely hear my stomach rumbling now I come to think of it so I shall be adding learning about the MMC to my to do list.
I have posted some links to the choline converting into TMAO here:
https://ggenereux.blog/discussion/topic/jennys-pros-and-cons-of-va-detox/?part=5#postid-19499
And regarding the balsamic vinegar and olive oil is because they contain DMB, which prevents some of this conversion according to the link bellow.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4871610/
Thanks for those links Luisa.
I haven't been on the forum for a while and I've been reading the thread you linked to with interest.
@jaj - I've just been reading your thread on pros and cons of VA detox and got to your post on PEMT snps. Prompted me to revisit my own results - homozygous for 2 PEMT mutations. Yet another indicator that I may very well be choline deficient!
I am eagerly awaiting my lecithin so I can try some out. Oh I do hope this is going to be a key addition for me. Fingers crossed.
Initial findings from choline.
Egg is better than even a small amount of lecithin (16/6 tsp) for me. Bloating has improved and intermittent gut pain reduced on the whole. Some improved BM's but not every day.
Main problems are disturbed sleep - difficulty dropping off to sleep both initially and after getting up in the night to use the toilet.
Also v dry eyes which is not pleasant.
I've been able to have an egg most days the past week, which I'm thrilled about to be honest. I can't think how long it's been since I've been able to eat a new food.
I had covid in December and although it was no worse than a bad cold it certainly wasn't the worst cold / bug I've ever had. This is when my dry eyes got worse. They improved slightly after xmas but have got worse again with the egg.
I've been looking at the treads on choline and I have a couple of questions.
- the suggestion to swap some beef for chicken - what is the reason for this? ie what is it about chicken vs beef that will helpfully slow down the detox for me?
- reducing protein and fat. With my diet so limited this is tricky for me. I am basically eating about 380g beef and 1050g potatoes a day with a couple of bananas and a bit of parsnip and lettuce thrown in (and now some egg). I can try increasing the potatoes even more and reducing the meat a little but there isn't much wriggle room there. I'm not sure what else I can do to try to slow things down whilst I build up the choline.
- betaine. I struggle with all grains especially gluten containing grains. In the past I've managed some millet and cassava once a week or so. I tried some quinoa a while back and it made me feel quite nauseous which put me off. Now I'm wondering if rather than me having a problem with quinoa itself it was more a reaction from having a surge in betaine. Do you think that is plausible? I know the only way to know is to try a small amount and see how I get on but I'm curious if anyone else has had a reaction to betaine and needed to introduce it slowly.
@andrew-b Thank you so much for bring choline to my attention.
@rachel Covid seems to result in a prolonged release of toxins into the bile (just a guess). I too have disturbed sleep despite all the other good things happening to me. One idea is it's excess copper that prevents people falling to sleep so easily. I would eat iceberg lettuce for the dry eyes and it and a number of things might have helped as they were introduced at same time.
- Swap some beef for chicken gives you more B5 which might help the sleep. Mushrooms also help B5. It also reduces the zinc in beef which might be promoting the detox too much. Eggs will eventually improve absorption.
- I think the potatoes are okay if slightly high but hopefully you can introduce parsnips and rutabagas eventually. Switch beef to chicken or even lean pork in small amounts. I agree not much wriggle room.
- Betaine might be key to dry eyes. Choline should be converting to betaine so unlikely a surge but possible. Quinoa in very small amount might be worth a try only 20-30 grams cooked is needed. The alternative would be beetroot which I ferment. There is betaine in the beef in small amount so you probably are getting some.
What stands out to me from your latest post, is that quinoa is extremely high in oxalate. I can't remember if you've explored that factor at all (sorry if you have and you already know this stuff). Barley is is only "low-oxalate" grain (aside from white rice), but obviously it contains gluten, though it does offer more betaine than wheat. [1]
Oats, corn, and brown rice are lower in oxalate than other gluten-free grains. [2] Banana is a low-oxalate fruit, and, if I remember correctly, I believe Sally Norton has said certain varieties of lettuce are low, too.
Potatoes are high. At 1050 g, you're getting 200 mg oxalate (Sally Norton and Elliot Overton recommend 150 mg daily for individuals not affected by "oxalate toxicity," and 50 mg as the goal to work towards for those who are), so I wonder if adding in those high-oxalate gluten-free grains could push you over the edge in that area?
Apparently thiamine is protective against oxalate accumulation. [3]
Anyway, thought I'd through that out there. Sending healing energy, @rachel! I'm excited to hear that you're able to tolerate an egg-a-day now. 😁 That's really great!
[1] https://www.mdpi.com/2304-8158/7/4/49/htm
[2] https://www.upmc.com/-/media/upmc/patients-visitors/education/unique-pdfs/low-oxalate-diet.pdf
[3] https://www.hormonesmatter.com/marginally-insufficient-thiamine-intake-oxalates/
Personally I have found relief on my digestive issues and my sleep by laying off too much fiber, also adding in the two the eggs. Parsnips have inulin in it and that's killer for my sibo issues, I added olive oil to be able to get enough calories, fat helps my constipation which helps my digestive issues. 5 g of Sunfiber twice a day has helped a lot with the constipation issue too, also I have been enjoying up to 4 slices of kamut bread and rice for my starches.
I haven't had beef in a while and feel good without it, chicken, fish and eggs are my main protein sources.
@puddleduck yes, it's a good reminder about oxalate. It's possibly not been mentioned in this thread but the quinoa is very high in betaine and therefore to reduce the oxalate issue it's suggested 20-30 grams of quinoa is all that's required to get sufficient betaine and reduce the oxalate issue for those who can cope with moderate amounts. Again, the choline and the betaine to solve the primary liver problem and then work round the oxalate as you say and other issues to find options. Beetroot also has an oxalate issue.