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Jenny’s pros and cons of vA detox
This article links to a great promotional website about eggs where there are recipes offered to the reader and health benefits described. There should be a similar website about meat. I'm thinking about the big push by big agriculture to base future eating habits on basically plant-based food and so-called lab-grown meat. People need to get awareness about how there is no replacement for real food.
@andrew-b thank you for the article but please noticed they say fasting TMAO levels! if you have good working kidney in theory whatever spike happens after eating will go down because kidneys clears it out. The research i have seen is postprandial TMAO. Also people with sibo might be converting more of this in the small intestines and not absorbing enough choline because you have the bacteria overwgrowth in the small intestine. Until I can find concrete evidence of postprandial TMAO levels not going up after eating eggs or red meat I will keep using my olive oil and balsamic vinegar, these are staples in the Mediterranean diet so I really see no harm of adding these, specially if you have sibo.
I'm pretty sure I have seen more research but for now I will link these ones because I don't have time right now to search them.
Click to access NutrResearchTMAO_2015.pdf
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5915041/
TMA and TMAO are generated postprandially and can reorganize host signal transduction in white adipose tissue
As a logical progression from our recent published work,20 we next hypothesized that TMA and TMAO may be mechanistically linked to the pathogenesis of obesity by acting as gut microbe-derived hormones that are sensed in WAT.2 To test this, we first examined the kinetics of TMA and TMAO production following a high fat test meal in mice. In fasted mice, a single gavage of a choline-containing high fat diet resulted in a postprandial spike in the appearance of both TMA and TMAO, which peaked around four hours post gavag"
Another one I thought it was interesting to mention for those that might want to have some dairy, I barely ever touch dairy.
https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/12/1/234/htm
Quote from wavygravygadzooks on December 20, 2022, 12:31 pmYes, I've tried supplementing potassium (and calcium, magnesium, salt, together and separately) during periods with and without significant carb consumption (primarily white rice). Nothing seems to change. I'm pretty sure anybody digesting meat properly on a carnivore diet high in protein, like what I'm doing most of the time, is getting more than enough potassium.
The cramps are definitely painful, I feel you there! I've gotten them in so many places...some of the weirder places are beneath my mouth around the throat (brought on by yawning) and in my toes.
I'm glad you were able to get rid of yours with dietary change.
These symptoms are just an electrolyte deficiency , the carnivore diet is not good for building up mineral levels in the body, it’s a deficient diet. Potassium supplements can be problematic for a number of reasons.
The only way to properly remineralise the body is eating lots of well cooked veg either pressure cooked or steamed. Obviously being low VA makes this harder to eat a variety of veg, but lots of cooked parsnips I have found to be good.
The other week I went through a short period of eating mainly protein and fat meat and almond butter. I also got these feet cramps constantly quite badly. As soon as I started eating the parsnips again they went.
Nope, you're dead wrong, yet again. Carnivore with sufficient lean meat offers plenty of electrolytes, quite likely more than you would get from plants...the key is their bioavailability.
I do think the muscle cramps/twitches I'm experiencing are influenced by macronutrient ratios, but it clearly has nothing to do with electrolyte intake because, as I said quite clearly, I've supplemented a shitload of electrolytes in many combinations and it does nothing. Supplements aren't perfect, but the amount I've taken should've done something noticeable if I was short on electrolytes in the bloodstream.
In my case, I'm pretty sure it has to do with either circulating retinoids and/or retinoids coming out of peripheral storage. High meat and fat intake seem to encourage the processing of Vitamin A, and therefore worsen the muscle problems. Carbs seem to alleviate the problem slightly, but for me they haven't eliminated it by any means.
I lived on processed carbs, sugar, and meat for almost my entire life. Never had a tooth cavity...until I started eating vegetables in quantity. Then two cavities back to back. In my experience, sugar is nowhere near as harmful as eating a ton of oxalates and carotenoids and other plant toxins. Vegetables are the devil.
Yeah and you’re completely wrong too, but again not much point in arguing with someone like you who thinks they know everything.
Anyone who specialises in mineral balancing will agree carnivore is a deficient diet. Yes I know meat does contain minerals but it is not the same thing as getting it from cooked veg.
Eating just meat and fat does not provide the nutrients and minerals the body needs to function optimally. If it were you wouldn’t be having these issues with cramps and your heart rate, exercise intolerance. It is more just a patch for the microbiome issues and toxicities you have from a lifetime of crappy diet, or maybe you were unlucky like I was and born with a poor microbiome.
I would be interested to see a hair mineral test of yours but you seem like the type who says hair mineral tests aren’t accurate.
I've seen the benefits of eating lots of properly cooked Veg with animal protein and a bit of fat everyday while ditching fruit, grains, raw veg which all aren’t good for building mineral levels.
A lot of people don’t even experience the benefits of vegetables due to eating them raw. Vegetable fibers are extremely tough for anyone to break down to obtain the nutrients and minerals.
I did 4 hair mineral tests, everytime my potassium and sodium levels were rock bottom. I used to eat meat, rice, eggs, fish, some refined carbs, fruit, some raw veg like carrots lettuce, chocolate etc, always organic no gluten. I also had no success from mineral supplements.
It was only when I found about dr Wilson’s development programme and started eating lots of pressure cooked veg with every meal and ditched stuff like fruit, grains etc. After eating lots of cooked veg everyday my potassium and sodium levels finally went up to the ideal range.
I had tried stuff like carnivore and keto before and also never felt like this.
I felt completely different eating in this way, energy so much better, autistic symptoms completely gone, adhd completely gone, very high vitality, health issues gone.
In response to this thread:
I see the VA detox as a makeshift attempt by the body adapting and trying to make the best out of the new circumstances it’s been given with the VA coming out into circulation. This is not how the body should be functioning, I bet all the wrong genes are activated, methylation impaired, DNA damaged as VA is coming out, while some VA is getting excreted, other toxicities are now building eg Glyhposate and other heavy metals as genes are not functioning as it should, microbiome disturbed and damaged giving opportunity for non ideal microbes and possibly pathogens to thrive.
People do experience improvements in certain areas of health from the removal of the VA, but a lot get worse in other areas and now have trouble eating VA and carotenoid foods even years in.
Sulphur is our biggest natural detoxification mineral, on VA detox many can’t tolerate the high sulfur veg anymore as it affects ALDH and maybe also because it detoxes glyphosate. While meat and beans do contain some sulfur they do not provide the detoxification benefits that high sulfur veg do.
A lot of VA detox People can’t tolerate many supplements anymore including b vits, another example of things not working properly in the body.
What came first the VA toxicity or other toxicities? I think in most cases it was other toxicities and this impacted the bodies metabolism and tolerance for VA.
See HTMA results attached. I'd be up for trying lots of things I question if they didn't cost me resources. The HTMA was pretty cheap, so I tried it out of curiosity since I'd just had bloodwork done with which I could compare. I did a followup consultation with Rick Malter for my HTMA. My conclusion is that the utility of HTMA is primarily limited to looking for the presence of toxic elements, and possibly scanning for extreme deficiencies where critical elements do not appear in the HTMA at all really.
The real life experiences of large numbers of people trump any reductionist attempts at using biomarkers to diagnose health. Biomarkers can be very helpful in certain circumstances, but all the labwork coming from people excelling on carnivore diets clearly shows what was previously considered "healthy" levels of biomarkers are quite often not as indicative as was thought.
Like I said before, I tried a diet very high in well-cooked vegetables for years. I hardly ever ate raw vegetables because I knew you had to break down the fiber to get anything out of them. I tried juicing vegetables for a while as well. I was eating homemade sauerkraut regularly. I had an abundance of sulfur from both animal and plant sources. That period of eating a bunch of plants is when I was the sickest.
You know why people with Hydrogen Sulfide SIBO can't handle plant sources of sulfur but can miraculously be fine with animal sources of sulfur? Because the animal sulfur is bioavailable and gets absorbed, and the plant sulfur is not and is often contained within secondary compounds that are intended to harm anything that consumes it. When I was eating plant foods, almost any cruciferous vegetable would give me hydrogen sulfide gas, but meat and eggs wouldn't at all. You know why? Because my intestines were absorbing and using the animal sulfur and not the plant sulfur...the plant sulfur was getting shunted to the colon and feeding sulfur reducing bacteria. There's a ton of sulfur in meat and eggs, that's why opening a container holding things like chicken or eggs releases a super sulfury smell.
You're just like Paul Saladino...because your own experience went badly, you decide that there's no way it could possibly work for anyone else despite all the evidence to the contrary. I hate on plant foods, but I readily admit that people can live long, healthy lives that include them, and that my own n=1 does not represent the average person's experience.
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Yes I’m aware people with SIBO can’t tolerate plant sulfur, I’ve had severe gut issues, SIBO, chronic infections myself which I developed after going travelling in Mexico. I used to also have issues with oxalates and sulfur veg gave me diahrrea , working on the gut with a wide range of antimicrobials , antifungals, biofilm breakers, a rotation of probiotics fixed this for me, having VA toxicity will make this more complicated though as a lot of the antimicrobials are high in carotenoids. And I was never saying one diet suits everyone. I also had a consultation with Rick Malter but I didn’t find it very helpful, all he said to me was keep doing what you’re doing and told me to buy and read his book without giving me any advice. You do have a low NA/K ratio which indicates weak adrenal strength so that will cause issues with exercise. Lots of things can cause this like chronic infections, toxicities, trauma. I know that gut bugs affect potassium channels and transport.
I used to have an even lower NA/k ratio and also had bad dysautonomia from exercise + CFS but I fixed it now. Other than that though you have a decent HTMA, minerals like lithium are associated with high IQ and from your comments on here I can see you are a smart person.
“SYMPTOMS OF A LOW SODIUM/POTASSIUM RATIO
Physical symptoms. Dr. Eck found that a low sodium/potassium ratio is associated with fatigue, sugar and carbohydrate intolerance, allergies, adrenal weakness, chronic infections, liver and kidney stress, cardiovascular stress, reduced immune response and possibly malignancy, and a more catabolic state or state of tissue breakdown.
The physical and physiological imbalances above can be expanded upon. For example, tissue breakdown can cause arthritis, ulcers, and practically any other disease depending upon where the tissue breakdown occurs. Cardiovascular stress can easily lead to a heart attack or stroke, and so on.
Mental and emotional symptoms. Dr Eck found that a low sodium/potassium ratio is associated with negative thinking and negative emotions in most cases. Prominent among these are frustration, resentment and hostility. It is also associated with reduced awareness in many cases, chronic stress, and “beating one’s head against a wall when the door is nearby”.
When the ratio is less than 1, often a person has hidden traumas that he or she is not aware of. The very low sodium/potassium ratio can perhaps be a protection against feeling the pain of the trauma. This can make the person appear to be less emotional, in fact. As the Na/K ratio approaches about 1 during correction on a development program, the traumas may surface, causing more feelings of anger, depression or others as the awareness grows.
Degree of low sodium/potassium ratio important. Both the physical and emotional symptoms tend to become more pronounced as the sodium/potassium ratio becomes lower. A ratio less than about 2 is moderate, while a ratio less than 1 is considered extreme.
For more, please read the article entitled Low Sodium/Potassium Ratio on this site.
Trauma Na/K. A sodium/potassium ratio less than 1:1 I call a trauma Na/K. The reason is that any time the Na/K ratio is this low, the person has usually experienced a trauma.”
so fascinating how you guys have such different experiences. It just shows that we have to individually figure out what is good for our own N.1.
Thanks for including that info about sodium-potassium ratios. I believe I got a lot of that info from Malter and the HTMA results document. When I read that (and other HTMA interpretations) it sounds very much like a horoscope in that the symptoms are vague enough and widespread enough in the general population that almost anybody could believe that description applies to them.
I had HPA axis problems back when I was eating all those plant foods. Based on my symptoms (I haven't retested adrenals and hormones with labwork), a carnivore diet pretty well completely eliminated that. I used to nap every day...haven't had to take a nap in a very long time despite interrupted sleep. Anybody dealing with chronic illness is likely to have suboptimal adrenal status...this is not informative or diagnostic in my opinion, it's just another knock-on symptom stemming from the underlying problem (in my case, most likely Vitamin A toxicity, oxalate toxicity, and resulting nervous system dysfunction).