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Rapid Gum Recession
Quote from wavygravygadzooks on October 10, 2021, 11:31 amI'm not eating cocoa, I'm eating coconut, and coconut is very low in oxalates.
I think I might've figured it out though...it could be the arginine content of the coconut, which is encouraging herpes, which is inflaming my gums. I've seen little white dots on my gums occasionally, and I was pretty sure they were from herpes even though I've not been getting the classic cold sore symptoms.
Apparently gelatin is also high in arginine, so I should probably also watch the bone broths I've been making. Maybe the worst gum problems happened when I unknowingly was eating both coconut and broth day after day.
Has anybody else had problems with herpes while doing low VA? Is this an indication that I'm low in nutrients, like zinc, or is it more likely from immune suppression from Vitamin A?
Oh, yes, I got it mixed up. Today I've been at my computer all day and I'm not thinking straight, sorry.
I have a problem with herpes. At least, I was tested for it (even before I went on a diet). And it was positive (herpes 6) For a long time I believed that this was the main cause of my symptoms. But I've done all sorts of things with it. I took supplements of selenium, vitamin C, aspirin, caffeine, acyclovir, zinc lysine. None of the above helps my symptoms.
Moreover, when I took lysine. I think it caused strange lesions on the hands of the skin. I'm not sure if it's it, but I'm staying away from isolated amino acids now.
I also have white spots on my gums. I think it's leukoplakia. This appeared to me on a low-VA diet. But I'm sure it's caused by vitamin A, so I'm not worried and hope it will pass soon.
Yes! We have massive problems with herpes, although it began when my eldest was a baby and likely before he was born, since I've had it since childhood... My eldest is now almost 18, and for many years and and his brother had the worst cases ever, lasting all winter, which would begin as a cold sore and expand until they each had a giant ring around their mouths, extending up to and including the tips of their noses, sometimes as far out as their ears... One of my kids has had what we could only think were herpes lesions (they were not staph or similar impetigo things, and it felt like herpes) on his arms. I have sometimes wondered if some of the crazy behavioral stuff that some of the kids had pre-Low-A had their basis in herpes run amok. There is STILL herpes lingering around their lips, and if they so much as eat one almond, they'll get cold sores. I read last week about how helpful arginine can be in fighting Covid, on the day when five of us felt little herpes tingles in our lips. Thankfully, these days our tingles generally don't explode into painful and unsightly rashes, but when I read about arginine, and we realized we had Covid a few days later, I actually wondered if our bodies were doing a pre-Covid-symptoms immune response which might have then triggered a bit of herpes. These viruses are really running the show underneath all this, I do believe!!
We have had really bad gums too. I have been wishing and hoping that Low A and less oxalates would help with this, but so far, not much.
I should have also added: my gum recession has gotten worse and worse over the years, but I do think that in-the-mouth herpes lesions have hastened it. Whenever I get one (super painful, had one last week and another this week, after a looooong time not having any), gum tissue goes away, never seeming to return. 🙁
I finally had to get gum surgery several years ago (of the sort where they insert cadaver tissue into your mouth to supplement your own tissues...I did NOT have enough of my own tissue to harvest from the roof of my mouth, which is what most gum surgeries involve! gah), after deciding that more bone and eventually tooth loss was just not the way I wanted to enter my forties. I had to take an anti-viral med after the surgery, and while the surgeon let me skip the abx, he would NOT let me skip the anti-viral: he said that if I got a herpes lesion during the healing process, I would basically ruin the potential healing for the $6000 surgery 🙁
It was the most unpleasant way to spend $6k EVER.
When my kids and I have herpes outbreaks, I give us high doses of lysine (in capsules, like 4 at a time, several times per day) and monolaurin. This has successfully quelled their lip rashes, although it is not perfect, and at the moment - since we have Covid and I had just read about arginine (the "opposite" of lysine, basically) being helpful in fighting it...I am just enduring the pain in my gums and letting the viruses duke it out...
I really wonder/hope if more time with a Sane Vitamin A intake will allow our immune systems to regulate these viral interlopers a bit better!
I didn't admit it, but I also had a gum recession at some point on a diet. But it started quickly and ended quickly. ButI have no idea what I did. Maybe I really cut out all sources of tocotrienols from the diet (I came up with this theory myself, lol). Perhaps some of my supplements helped: calcium carbonate, vitamin E, vitamin K, caffeine (?), apple cider vinegar. Try...
Or maybe I cut out some additives... Reduced the amount of fat? I don't know.
I wouldn't be so quick to blame Arginine. It is suspected to be a useful compound in preventing VA toxicity. In this study [1], it was useful at reducing the combined toxicity of RA and casein. It's a shame we don't if it's useful without casein.
@sarabeth-matilsky, Herpes and gum recession. Why haven’t I made the connection as I have had both: herpes since I was little and gum recession since I was about 30. Lysine works for me well especially when I take it just at the start of that well known itching/burning sensation. Eating nuts is a sure way for an outbreak; coffee enema would do it but I don’t do them much anymore.
I am wondering if regular supplementation with lysine would stop the recession progress (rinsing the mouth with lysine water might be an idea).
BTW, I recovered from covid taking vitamin C, biotin, zinc and magnesium and melatonin. I am still waiting for the return of my sense of smell though. Dr. Zelenko protocol call for vit. C, zinc, biotin and vit.D.
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I only read the abstract of the study you linked to, but it sounds like arginine reduced triglyceride levels, but not necessarily retinoic acid levels. Even if retinoic acid supplementation was the original cause of elevated triglycerides, the reduction in triglycerides with arginine does not mean that arginine is useful for dealing with retinoic acid itself, although it may serve as a band-aid for some consequences of excess retinoic acid.
Regardless, I still don't know why coconut created such a nightmare for my gums. It quite likely was not arginine, but instead the combination of fiber and saturated fat (and maybe copper), which led to a sudden detox pattern that left my gums in shambles. Almost all of the skin and mucus membrane symptoms of VA toxicity I've experienced occurred after I removed VA from my diet...dry skin, dry eyes, dry sinuses, gum pain and recession, dandruff, cherry angiomas, sun spots. Additionally, I began getting crazy watery diarrhea as soon as I removed VA from my diet, and that has persisted for over a year now. There is a fairly strong correlation between the severity of my episodic nighttime symptoms (aching joints and muscles, muscle spasms, headache, overheating, inflamed sinuses, dry eyes, strange mental sensations and breathing patterns, GI pain and disturbances) and the diarrhea that follows the next morning. Oftentimes, the worse I feel at night and in the morning, the better I feel later in the day, particularly with energy levels and cardiovascular fitness.
At this point, my best guess is that the detox process is inherently harmful, but that it potentially becomes much more harmful when you supplement with nutrients involved in detox like B vitamins, magnesium, and zinc, which I tried in some form for a long time. Maybe some combination of elements in the coconut was just a bit too much...I would typically get some of the worst burning watery diarrhea after eating coconut, which I can only figure was either a dump of retinoic acid and/or bile acids.
Yes, I understand that study is far too little to make any claims regarding Arginine. However, triglycerides are a fairly reliable biomarker, so I don’t think the results can be outright dismissed. I’d love to see more studies in this area.
Your symptoms are very worrying and I have no useful advice to offer, but I’m wondering why did you go low VA at all if you had no symptoms of VA toxicity to begin with? Don’t fix what ain’t broken and all that.
Regarding your experience with coconut, aren’t coconuts known to contain anti fungals and anti microbials? I’ve seen more than a few reports of diarrhea after over consumption. Though in these cases, it was all done intentionally to kill, and then excrete, the dead fungal or bacterial matter.