Quote from Orion on January 21, 2022, 10:24 am

@christian I have only used Alli and B1 HCl. 

Found this on hormonesmatter.com and explains

 

Quote from Hermes on January 21, 2022, 12:12 pm

@orion Thank you! 🙂

Quote from wavygravygadzooks on January 21, 2022, 12:24 pm

@christian

I mentioned this somewhere, maybe earlier in this thread...I'm pretty sure Allithiamine with a capital "A" is a product that contains TTFD, which is not the same as allithiamine derived from garlic.  Elliot Overton also sells TTFD under the product name Thiamax, which has fewer additives, but should otherwise be the same TTFD contained in Allithiamine.

Quote from Hermes on January 21, 2022, 12:33 pm

@wavygravygadzooks

 

Oh, I mixed you up. 🙂 Hm, so there is Allthiamine (contains TTDF), allthiamine directly derived from garlic and Thiamax which also contains TTFD. Is there any particular form that you recommend? I'm inclined to believe the one derived from garlic is least problematic, but I'm might fall into the fallacy of believing "the more natural the better".

Quote from wavygravygadzooks on January 21, 2022, 12:46 pm

@christian

Having tried TTFD, benfotiamine, and thiamine HCL (in a B-complex), I'm not sure I have an obvious recommendation.

TTFD supposedly gets into the cells, particularly those in the brain, with less "effort" by your body, so if you are lacking the cofactors or whatever to get thiamine into your cells, then TTFD can supposedly help bypass that issue.  But because of that, TTFD is also more like a drug than benfotiamine or thiamine HCL because your body has a harder time regulating TTFD uptake into the cells.

Benfotiamine is supposedly better absorbed than thiamine HCL, but once they've been absorbed I think they're supposed to have similar effects.  You can take massive doses of thiamine HCL for cheap, and I think it is arguably closer to the natural form of thiamine you would get from most food than benfotiamine, so your body is probably better able to regulate how much it wants to use.

So, on one hand I would probably recommend thiamine HCL because it is cheap and probably the easiest for your body to regulate.  On the other hand, if you want to really test what happens when you get more thiamine into your cells, then TTFD will probably give you the most noticeable effect.  Benfotiamine lies somewhere in between those extremes.

Quote from Hermes on January 22, 2022, 9:32 am

@wavygravygadzooks

Thank you for your thoughtful response. I appreciate it. I'll have some Allthiamine around that expires soon; I've tried around 50 mg the last few days. Maybe I'm a little more clear-headed. Sleep hasn't been that great for some reason. So I've tried the sub-lingual route today. I have the feeling that the sulfur in Allthiamine is somehow feeding on bacteria. I'll try some thiamine HCL when I get my hands on it.

Have you ever noticed any drastic iron depletion from thiamine?

And do you have any ideas how much of the Allthiamine is absorbed in the mouth when placing it under the tongue? Googling hasn't revealed much so far. I've found a study where the authors tested a medication. Sub-lingual absorption was around 35 % for the 5 mg dosage, and it would decrease as the dosage increased.

Quote from wavygravygadzooks on January 22, 2022, 1:37 pm

@christian

Sorry, I have no idea how much might be absorbed sublingually.

I also don't know if there is a relationship between supplemental thiamine and iron...why do you ask about that?  Have you noticed symptoms that you think are associated with iron dysregulation?

The only obvious effect I've noticed from taking thiamine (particularly benfotiamine, and maybe TTFD, even at doses as low as ~25 mg) is a lackadaisical sensation, loss of energy, and a feeling of shakiness/hypoglycemia that can last for hours.  At times it's so bad I can't bring myself to do much but sit on the couch in a half-stupor.  Sometimes I try to fight my way through it and force myself to exercise, thinking I can "burn it off" and rev my body up, but that's usually a miserable experience and I'm not sure it works very well.

It's possible that the thiamine is effecting iron usage, which is what causes the shaky low-energy state.  I tried to stick with thiamine supplementation for at least a month, wondering if I was experiencing the so-called healing "paradox" that Overton and Londsdale talk about, but it never got better, so I stopped taking it for the most part.

I'm not sure if you saw my mention of cherry angiomas in other posts, but I feel like I get new ones every time I start taking isolated thiamine.  I'm still not sure what the connection would be...

I think there's overwhelming evidence that humans evolved to be hunters and to eat primarily meat and animal fat.  We have some proof of concept with people being on a carnivore diet for years at a time without obvious health issues, so I think we can safely say that the recommended daily intake for most nutrients is complete bullshit.  Recommended intake is highly dependent on health status and the entire composition of the diet.

I still don't understand how anybody thinks you can even achieve most of the RDI's without eating like 30 pounds of food every day, sourced from all over the world, and out of season.  For example, the only significant sources of thiamine I see in nutrition tables are pork, nuts, and possibly oats.  Are we to believe that you can only get enough thiamine by having these foods in your diet every day?  That's ridiculous.

Thus, I use the amounts of nutrients found in animal foods as a rough guide for the things my body probably expects to get in high quantities.  If it's hard to get from animal foods, then my body probably doesn't expect to be getting much of it regularly.  Thiamine seems hard to get from animal foods, so I tend to think it's not a nutrient my body should need much of.  If it's true that we need more thiamine with higher carb intake, yet there is not much thiamine found in carb-dense foods, that would suggest that we are not made to eat many such carb-dense foods.

Quote from wavygravygadzooks on January 22, 2022, 9:44 pm

@jaj  I think I remember you mentioning somewhere that B1 depletes or competes with B6 for absorption?  If that's correct, can you elaborate on that relationship and point towards anything written up on it?

I'm wondering if there's a connection between B1, B6, and copper overload that might explain my cherry angioma eruptions.

Thanks.

Quote from Jenny on January 23, 2022, 9:09 am

@wavygravygadzooks I’ve read so many connections I’ve lost track! In my current notebook I’ve got written that B2 required to activate B1 and B6 and B12, but I’ve got 11 other books full of notes too and currently a terrible memory. I’ll see if I can find anything. 

 

These are my notes on cherry angiomas (sorry they are a bit rough). Posting in case they are at all useful. I’m guessing you know most of this. As I’ve mentioned I got 40 or so after extreme stress in 2017. 

Iodine deficiency

VC deficiency

Copper dump

Bromine. 

Poor liver detox (congested liver)

 

Axe cherry angioma article: recommends tea tree oil or ACV on skin. Improving detox and limiting toxic exposure. 

Another one said Epsom Salt baths. 

Associated with stress. Oestrogen dominance. Liver problems. High Copper.

Vitamin C could be helpful.

 

Garrett Smith says that more cherry angiomas mean pushing things too hard. Indicate a weakened area of capillary that does a U turn and pushes through skin. Indicates congestion in liver. Getting back pressure into blood system.

 

From internet: ‘So whether it is Bromine or copper, the net result will be similar, and that is, the body will be depleted of Vitamin C, and when this happens there is a considerable chance that blood vessels - both veins and arteries - can become weakened.

Bioflavonoids, which occur with "ascorbic acid" in nature, is one of the most effective things we can include in our diet to strengthen the walls of our vascular system. If you bruise easily or have varicose veins, you probably need more bioflavonoids in your diet - and the description of the angioma - burst capillaries - is like a little aneurysm. Aneurysm's are more likely to occur when copper toxicity is in the picture as well, showing again the link to Vitamin C. The liver is implicated due to its role in cleaning the blood and if the Liver is slow in this process additional pressure will be put on our arterial walls. Is it starting to make sense?’

 

So I’ve tried to cover all these bases. I supplement 250mg vC. I take some iodine. I take zinc but not enough to shift copper too rapidly. I try and avoid intense stress. I’m doing Epsom salt baths. I’m trying to be generally kind to my liver and live a low toxin lifestyle. I’m doing a slow vA detox. I don’t seem to be getting any more that I’ve noticed. I did get more 2020 after I’d been really ill with covid (massive vitamin A dump into blood) and then had extreme post covid/lockdown anxiety. 

Bioflavonoids, which occur with "ascorbic acid" in nature, is one of the most effective things we can include in our diet to strengthen the walls of our vascular system. If you bruise easily or have varicose veins, you probably need more bioflavonoids in your diet - and the description of the angioma - burst capillaries - is like a little aneurysm. Aneurysm's are more likely to occur when copper toxicity is in the picture as well, showing again the link to Vitamin C. The liver is implicated due to its role in cleaning the blood and if the Liver is slow in this process additional pressure will be put on our arterial walls. Is it starting to make sense?’