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Tim's Log
reasonable amounts of vanity are a sign of good mental health
healthy skin and hair are a sign of good physical health and difficulties with that shouldn't be dismissed
but when all is said and done, the very best thing we can do for ourselves is to celebrate the unique incarnation we are, today
Quote from ggenereux on June 1, 2020, 7:22 amHi @tim-2,
I think it is incredibly important to prove that vitamin A is not a vitamin - at all. And, yes, that’s the primary reason I continue to follow my very restrictive diet. My goal is to get a 0.0 serum level test this August. But, I agree that my diet is probably not the optimal diet for regaining one’s health, and other people don’t need to be so restrictive; unless they want to make this an n > 1. Also, I continue to do really well on my restrictive diet, so I don’t feel like I’m sacrificing too much.
One of the reasons I choose bison over beef, is that it is very low in fat, and therefore even lower in vitamin A than the trace amounts found in beef. Also, in an effort to eliminate even more vitamin A, I’m changing from making blood donations to much more frequent plasma donations.
What significance would you put on a university lab conducted repeat of the 1925 Wolbach and Howe study that I documented in my eBook? It is the study that “proved” vitamin A being so essential. If a modern-day repeat of the study (including taking the animals through a reproductive cycle) gets the opposite results of Wolbach and Howe, would that then change your view?
Thanks
Grant
Hi Grant,
In a VA toxic adult it could easily take them over a decade to become VAD on a low VA diet. In developing nations zinc, protein and other deficiencies likely play a role in fast tracking Xeropthalmia. In someone that is zinc and protein replete Xeropthalmia will likely take longer to occur. Your body is obviously doing its best to conserve what you've got left, hence why it is taking so long to get to 0.
There are other studies like the recent one with rat fetuses linked above that clearly show how essential VA is. My understanding is that your major problem with the Wolbach study is that you think that the lard contained enough retinoic acid to poison the animals' eyes. Even Accutane users only experience early stages of Xeropthalmia but animals with lard in their diet go blind? There isn't even any evidence that lard contains significant levels of retinoic acid.
If mice are fed a zero VA diet from weaning then I predict that it could even take two breeding generations to see problems arising from VAD. If multiple generations of mice were given zero VA food and thrived (gotta make sure no insects fall into cage or maggots have a chance to develop) then it would be time to start questioning VA science but this scenario won't happen!
Can you point to any study that shows that DHA is a better ligand?
I don't think VA per se overstimulates, it is excess VA that does that.
It's not a solution but yeah I could see VA receptor agonists reducing symptoms if people are VA toxic.
Glad you are seeing some benefits to your hair. Before I started losing my hair it was super thick. Beard and body hair is thick as well. I don't think it is just genetic. I think that my hair genetics are just more susceptible to high VA than others and I've been high VA most of my life. My beard is so dense it negatively affects its appearance. There is no soul patch or anything, just dense hair everywhere on my chin. Once I get low VA for the first time in my life it will be interesting to see if it is too late in life to have an effect on body hair growth as well.
Regarding whether VA is necessary, I tend to look at things a bit more intuitively (than you study-reader types, LOL), although I do still consider myself non-woo.
To me, the question is INTERESTING but a bit moot. Vitamin A is so ubiquitous that a zero VA diet is unnatural and actually pretty hard to devise.
However, if you say to me, "hey lilchick, .humans (and our farm foods and domesticated animals) aren't very natural!" I'll give you that! So, running a SOMEWHAT unnatural diet is probably compatible! But I would say that we still retain some bit of the natural world in us.
And we have this nice liver there to help us deal with the VA onslaught.
If we come up with symptoms that say "liver's full!", we obviously don't need more!
Regarding hair, mine is growing fast. IMO fast hair and nail growth is a sign of good amounts of Vit D. I need to trim my bang DAILY to keep it out of my eye.
Hi @tim-2,
RE: In a VA toxic adult it could easily take them over a decade to become VAD on a low VA diet.
But, the published science on it claims the usage to be ~0.5% liver storage /day. So that means in about just 200 days we should reach a VAD state. Clearly, that’s not happening.
Where did you get the “over a decade” estimate from? That’s 17X longer than the 200 day estimate. But, obviously, the science is wrong on it (again), and I think the timeframe is really around 5 years.
RE: In developing nations zinc, protein and other deficiencies likely play a role in fast tracking Xeropthalmia.
But, in Sommer’s book he documents that the average vitamin A serum level in some developing nations is on par with our “normal”, so how then could a non-existent VAD in these populations lead to xerophthalmia? It makes no sense what-so-ever.
Then, in this study of dosing children with vitamin A and carotene they sure did not prevent xerophthalmia.
Failure of a Massive Single Oral Dose of Vitamin A to Prevent Deficiency
SHEILA M. PEREIRA and ALMAS BEGUM
From the Nutrition Research Unit, Christian Medical College and Hospital, Vellore-4, Tamil Nadu, India
And since all the children began this study with excellent eye health, and then AFTER vA supplementation, and in just 10 weeks, they went on to develop xerophthalmia, it does not take a quantum leap of logic to see that they probably caused the xerophthalmia.
But, I agree that if people can’t build the RBPs then they are going to get into big trouble.
RE: In someone that is zinc and protein replete xerophthalmia will likely take longer to occur.
As above, I agree.
Your body is obviously doing its best to conserve what you've got left, hence why it is taking so long to get to 0.
I don’t think that’s obviously the case at all. If there really was a need for vA then it would be at some near fixed rate of metabolism, say proportional to body mass (going with the claim that it’s needed to differentiate stem cells). Therefore, there is no way for the body to “conserve” it other than induced tissue atrophy. So, if I was running low on vA then I should be seeing at least some indication of it. But, it’s the opposite, with time I’m still slowly getting even healthier, and of course I’m getting older too.
Also, since I tested at the same 0.1 µmol/L for the last two years I think it is far more likely that the body has trouble scrubbing out these very low concentrations, and that it takes a long time to completely and deeply clean out the liver stores. Also, like with many antibodies, it could take something like 7 years to reduce the RBPs down to below detection levels.
RE: There are other studies like the recent one with rat fetuses linked above that clearly show how essential VA is.
I think you are putting too much faith in the “science” of it. I only read the abstract, but, I’ll have a closer look at it.
RE: My understanding is that your major problem with the Wolbach study is that you think that the lard contained enough retinoic acid to poison the animals' eyes.
No, my issue is not with the lard. I suspect that it was more the casein, and not just the lard, that poisoned their animals.
The problem that I have with the W&H study is the fact that they killed almost all of their animals in just 10-12 weeks, and most animals exhibited multi-organ damage / disintegration. There is simply no-way that was due to a mere deficiency. You literally cannot starve an animal to death, and have that kind of organ destruction take place. It’s complete nonsense.
RE: Even Accutane users only experience mild forms of Xeropthalmia
That’s not consistent with the accounts from some of the people that have contacted me. They have extremely dry eyes, and are now dependent on daily eye drops to lubricate their eyes. What do you think would happen to their eyes if they did not have the artificial tear drops and ointments? I think they’d develop corneal lesions, scarring, and that then leading to infections.
RE: but animals with lard in their diet go blind? There isn't even any evidence that lard contains significant levels of retinoic acid.
Yes, there is some evidence, but it’s not quantified. I wrote about it in P4P. But, who knows what the lethal RA dose is for a rat?
RE: If mice are fed a zero VA diet from weaning then I predict that it could even take two breeding generations to see problems arising from VAD.
Why do we need two breeding cycles to detect problems? A key principle of science is repeatability. So, a repeat VAD study (but w/ no casein, no lard etc. ) should kill the animals in 10-12 weeks as did W&H , right? But, if that does not happen, wouldn't that alone disqualify their experiment? If so, that should also completely disqualify the “it’s a vitamin” claim too - because then clearly something else other than VAD killed their animals.
I mentioned the breeding cycle as just kind of an follow-on experiment to prove that vA is not needed for embryo development.
RE: If multiple generations of mice were given zero VA food and thrived (gotta make sure no insects fall into cage or maggots have a chance to develop)
Sounds like you are kind of grasping for straws there with the bugs, but sure, we’d keep all the insects out of the cages.
RE: then it would be time to start questioning VA science but this scenario won't happen!
Well, you know what I think of so-called vA science. But, how do you know that scenario won’t happen? Rather than speculate on it, I think we should find out.
But, don’t get me wrong. I don’t have some hatred towards vA (even though it so nearly killed me).
Vitamin-A et al, is not going anywhere. We are stuck with it. However, if we can prove that it’s not a vitamin- at all, then hopeful people can be more aware of its danagers and can then to be more careful with it. We should not supplement with, not add it to our foods, and the WHO should not continue to poison millions of kids in 100 countries every year. And, we should not ever call RA a “medicine”.
Of course, I’m totally fine with agreeing to disagree on the “it’s an essential vitamin” point.
But, I definitely intend on finding out.
Hi @ggenereux2014,
Where did you get the “over a decade” estimate from? That’s 17X longer than the 200 day estimate. But, obviously, the science is wrong on it (again), and I think the timeframe is really around 5 years.
Yeah it's obvious that it's badly wrong, if they had read the human VA deficiency experiment studies they would have known that. Some people had minimal serum retinol changes after 1.5 years. I briefly read the isotope explanation for the 0.5% per day calculation, nothing stuck out as poorly designed. It's a guess based on what I've read over the last year and a bit. For people like me with a liver full of retinol I would expect around a decade until symptoms of xeropthalmia arrive. The Australian child that got xeropthalmia was eating low VA for 5 years before he started getting symptoms and his liver would have already been low before that. It took another two years for him to start to go blind.
But, in Sommer’s book he documents that the average vitamin A serum level in some developing nations is on par with our “normal”, so how then could a non-existent VAD in these populations lead to xerophthalmia? It makes no sense what-so-ever.
Then, in this study of dosing children with vitamin A and carotene they sure did not prevent xerophthalmia.
It's hard to respond to this. The developing nations with the high rates of xeropthalmia have normal average serum retinol levels? In Africa many nations seem to have diverse ecologies within their borders, some areas people may eat high va foods whereas in other areas they may not. Borders don't really suit Africa, it's really a continent with a massive collection of tribes over it that have wildly varying diets and lifestyles.
From the study:
"The findings are in accordance with previous experience, when a load of 100,000 mcg Vit A was unable to maintain adequate serum levels beyond 15 to 19 weeks when given to depleted children."
Sounds like malnutrition is stopping some children from either absorbing VA, storing VA or making RBP.
And since all the children began this study with excellent eye health, and then AFTER vA supplementation, and in just 10 weeks, they went on to develop xerophthalmia, it does not take a quantum leap of logic to see that they probably caused the xerophthalmia.
I don't see how you come to that conclusion? These were deficient children. At the end of the study there were two cases of xeropthalmia in the retinol supplemented groups and four cases in the control groups.
I don’t think that’s obviously the case at all. If there really was a need for vA then it would be at some near fixed rate of metabolism, say proportional to body mass (going with the claim that it’s needed to differentiate stem cells). Therefore, there is no way for the body to “conserve” it other than induced tissue atrophy. So, if I was running low on vA then I should be seeing at least some indication of it. But, it’s the opposite, with time I’m still slowly getting even healthier, and of course I’m getting older too.
Also, since I tested at the same 0.1 µmol/L for the last two years I think it is far more likely that the body has trouble scrubbing out these very low concentrations, and that it takes a long time to completely and deeply clean out the liver stores. Also, like with many antibodies, it could take something like 7 years to reduce the RBPs down to below detection levels.
On low VA I feel like I'm getting younger instead of older too.
The body doesn't use vitamins, macronutrients, water or anything at fixed rates. For example if a Vit C rich fruit like an orange is consumed then Vit C will be lost in the urine and will be liberally available to cells. The next day if no Vit C is consumed then Vit C starts to become less available and prioritized to its more important functions.
It is blatantly obvious to me looking at how the body converts carotenes into retinol and then purposely stores them in the liver that VA is a very important nutrient. Carotenes and carotene breakdown products are eliminated in bile and urine over time so there isn't any need to elaborately convert them into retinoids and store them in the liver if we didn't need retinoids. Retinoids are dangerous in excess because our body is designed for them in smaller hormone like amounts. If we didn't have receptors for them then they would not present such a risk.
That’s not consistent with the accounts from some of the people that have contacted me. They have extremely dry eyes, and are now dependent on daily eye drops to lubricate their eyes. What do you think would happen to their eyes if they did not have the artificial tear drops and ointments? I think they’d develop corneal lesions, scarring, and that then leading to infections.
Ok, fair enough.
Vitamin-A et al, is not going anywhere. We are stuck with it. However, if we can prove that it’s not a vitamin- at all, then hopeful people can be more aware of its danagers and can then to be more careful with it. We should not supplement with, not add it to our foods, and the WHO should not continue to poison millions of kids in 100 countries every year. And, we should not ever call RA a “medicine”.
I agree that it shouldn't be available without a prescription. I explained my case to the senior pharmacist at my nearest pharmacy and he agreed I had a good argument for it being prescription only. Fortifying food with it is insane, especially as supplemental retinol is not the same as retinol in food, different enantiomers.
But, don’t get me wrong. I don’t have some hatred towards vA (even though it so nearly killed me).
I think your gift has been to alert us to the problem of excess VA. I'm very thankful for that.
RE: Even Accutane users only experience mild forms of Xeropthalmia
this statement is quite infuriating, but i get it, you haven’t experienced it. it has driven some accutane users to almost the point of killing themselves. i have extremely dry eyes, and in some cases more so than accutane users and i haven’t even taken accutane, i took cod liver oil and liver pills. i had to put drops in my eyes every 20-30 mins at it’s worst. i’ve had to wear goggles 24/7 literally. at work i wear lab goggles and when i sleep at night i wear swim goggles with some venting (lack of eye oxygen at night kind of hurts in the morning). i have meibomian gland dropout and i’m sure my eyes would be destroyed right now without drops or some type of moisture retention goggles. in the early stages, without goggles, i used to have forced crying (tear glands still work) for nearly an hour because my eyes were so dry and red and it was my body’s only solution to remoisturize my eyes.
it’s gotten dramatically better and i can probably a good 8+ hours without drops these days, but i still need the goggles otherwise i would dry out
just a quick comment about the the senior pharmacist above. i’m a pharmacist and i guarantee you the pharmacist knows nothing about vitamin A except that it’s fat soluble and is “essential for eyesight/growth.”
Quote from tim on June 2, 2020, 10:52 amThat sounds really annoying. I don't see how you could work as a pharmacist and wear goggles?
The pharmacist was fairly knowledgeable, he knew about it's teratogenic effects etc.
depression set in pretty quickly after getting the symptoms, especially after most of the treatment options failed at the ophthalmologist. it’s not just annoying, it’s life changing.
i work in the hospital.
ah yeah, they should know about it because of dispensing isotretinoin and some other retinoids in the pharmacy. but other than that, there’s no deep dive into studies or metabolism or anything of that sort.
@pano200 I was thinking about you and your eyes and wanted to mention what I do, and my wonderings about an even better idea.
One of the worst things for me is that my eyes can't clean themselves out properly. I have dry eyes and sparse lashes. So, I have a very strong magnifying mirror and q-tips (cotton swabs on a stick) in my desk at work and at home and I clean the junk out of my eyes a few times a day. I like to wet the q-tips, so a water bottle might be useful. Bright light is necessary.
I've often thought that there might a a very good light on the market for this. Perhaps something that a real pro opthamologist uses. I've never looked into it. But once I was at the eye doc and he showed me how he had a special light that illuminated the field of my eye showing all the junk. I'm lucky enough to usually be able to use INDIRECT natural light often enough.