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Tips on how do you slow down the detox.
Another propaganda post by the egg heads. This is so cringe. All beliefs, and nothing to back anything up with.
Quote from Andrew B on April 4, 2023, 10:34 amWe need to move away from doing a zero Vitamin A diet. That point has been convincingly made by @ggenereux2014 : it doesnt look like we need much Vitamin A at all. And reducing it really helps liver health and certainly for me has reversed decades of so called aging diseases. We are now doing a liver detoxification based on the idea we dont need much Vitamin A. But in the process some of us have realised that the antidotes to Vitamin A poisoning: choline, betaine, methionine, inositol and biotin are far more powerful than the Vitamin A.
One principle or piece of wisdom I've learnt from the best liver detoxers and nutritionists over 24 years reading and doing experiments is that the detox happens when you are healthy. What we dont want to do is trigger this Vitamin A dump by going extremely low when a person is already ill. That's why the detox setback has resulted in poorer health for a few of us and a bit of improvement and some downsides for some. I only escaped my own decline by going back to the principles I learnt before from Xandria Williams in The Liver Detox Plan. Help detox pathways as well.
The most successful of us have tended to stick to a balanced varied diet with some amounts of Vitamin A and carotenoids in it. The eggs if tolerated can gain great improvements to the liver even with small amounts of vitamin A even up to 4,000 IUs of it. So I suggest at first you dont trigger a Vitamin A detox. You remove the liver and high carotenoids to achieve a moderate Vitamin A consumption and then let the antidotes do their work of improving absorption, improving reaction to fibre and helping resolve the liver problems. Great progress can still be made on a low to moderate Vitamin A intake.
I'm not an outlier with this practice. It's what the best practitioners do. My friend @Meredith is a dietician and she said yesterday she gives fatty liver patients eggs. And you're going to have small amounts of Vitamin A 250IUs per egg and some might benefit from 4 or 5 eggs initially to rescue them from severe liver problems or severe malnutrition. That's you at 1,000-1,250 IUs straight away. I've replenished choline which may be a crucial step for many and now my Vitamin A intake on 2.5 eggs a day and some carotenoids is probably 1,000 IUs so you can get to a low Vitamin A eventually if you want but you dont start off with an extremely low Vitamin A when a person is ill. The repercussions of detox setback, lutein sensitivity, Vitamin A sensitivity, seizures and glutamate problems are not worth it. We can't make people worse. Or be uncertain about it.
Damn it... For the first time in my life I feel sympthathy for G. Smith. I really understand why he banned you. Did you even read Grant's reply in this moronic thread?
@andrew-b What I take away from @ggenereux2014 is that we don't need ANY vitamin A. But the things that help us detox from Vitamin A, or protect us from it, are also in foods that have a small amount of it. Grant's experiments with raising rodents on a zero vitamin A diet convinced me. Those were the healthiest, happiest rodents I've ever seen.
@ggenereux2014 In body building, there is a concept that you can cut calories, and you can increase the amount of exercise, and they recommend you don't cut calories too much, but stabilize the calories and then increase the amount of resistance exercise, to lose weight. When I see Andrew recommending 1000 IU of vitamin A per day from eggs, I thought of that principle. If the choline in the eggs makes me detox 5000 more IU of vitamin A per day than before, then that extra vitamin A from the eggs disappears due to the choline, and the detox continues. Probably the same with oxalates; they are bad, but if the antidote outweighs them, they can be ignored.
I did rice and beans and beef for half a year, then suspended the experiment. I didn't have a detox reaction, but I didn't have any weight loss either. I didn't get tired of the rice and beans. They were tasty then, and they are tasty now. Salt and a teaspoon of olive oil were enough to make them really really tasty. As a starting point, I'm the same height and weight as Grant when he began his low-A diet.
My working hypothesis so far: vitamin A is a poison. Full stop. vitamin C is useless, vitamin D is rat poison. Heavy metals like copper and iron aggravate vitamin A poisoning. So do pesticides like glyphosate. So do oxalates, found in green veggies. Some amount of cold pressed PUFA such as flaxseed oil and olive oil can be very beneficial, maybe even necessary, but most have been processed in ways that make them harmful. Coconut oil is neutral, all other oils to be avoided. Betaine from grains and quinoa will help detox by preserving choline. Washed rice has the benefit over most grain products that it isn't enriched. The enrichments put in grain products (iron, B vitamins) aggravate vitamin A poisoning directly and indirectly, B vitamins mess with your appetite, and iron aggravates your colon. Dietary fiber in massive amounts has tremendous benefits by feeding various bacteria in your colon which do good things for you. It will also make sure toxic bile gets flushed quickly, and provide a soothing coating to the walls of your colon. This is the opposite of what some here are saying, so it may have to do with WHICH TYPE of fiber they tried, how much, for how long, etc. There are soluble, insoluble, and resistant starches. All three have an important role. Pasteurized dairy is a source of vitamin A and retinoic acid, so should be avoided, including any dairy products. Also the fortification of milk is bad. If raw dairy products can be found, they may be ok in small amounts. Stimulants are bad, but it may take over a year for the cortisone system to recover, so no coffee or chocolate.
I've been taking 4 eggs a day for the past few weeks, and been feeling really good, but no weight loss.
Food separating: After I ate the rice and beans and meat all together, within an hour I'd feel really sleepy. Someone told me to Google food separating, which basically is that you don't eat starches and meat together. It did help. Doesn't explain why I can eat a hamburger on a bun with a side of fries without getting sleepy.
Current plan to restart the vitamin A detox:
Diet: Oatmeal and eggs for breakfast, rice and beans for dinner. Sourdough bread if needed, if you can ensure the flour was organic and unenriched. One tablespoon of cold pressed flaxseed (linseed) oil per day. Refined sea salt only, no more Himalayan pink salt. If sweets are needed, a handful of figs, dates, or raisins, preferably with breakfast. Add the fiber back in, a bit more every couple days, until at the desired level, at least 40grams per day, but 120grams for most dramatic benefits. This is suprisingly similar to the old bodybuilder diet before steroids came in.
Exercise: Walking, and bicycling when weather and energy level permits. A friend who is becoming a physical trainer gave me a bodyweight workout that is mild and light, but still allows for steady progression as health improves. Have a massage as regularly as budget allows, up to once a week, to flush out the lymph system. Make sure they do your neck and jaw.
Here on the slow boat, I think my detoxes are generally like a low-grade hangover and they still come and go. I added eggs very early on (within a few months), and. little raw milk, and a little cheese. My fat is butter which I use in moderation. I never did add back many veggies/fruits and those I eat are whitish. I have my life back in that I'm not suffering from headaches and vomiting anymore. On the slow boat I have progressed but slowly. It took about 1 year to stop the headaches and vomiting. I'm not like Grant in that I can say I'm "cured"! I still have some annoying issues (for instance tinnitus). I think animal foods are infiltrated because of VA supplements in feed, but we NEED them. So they need to be fixed. I also believe we never needed to "eat the rainbow"... as innocuous and pretty as it seems. The vegetable part of my life is now permanently different.
My husband hasn't had detox symptoms and still has fatty liver. (he is not very interested in the whole topic of lowered VA, however). He is eating less VA but only because I shop and cook. Now, husband is the type that (IMO) creates fat in which to safely store VA, and his body seems to be holding onto it pretty tightly.
When I look at the differences between husband and I, he eats a lot of restaurant food. He doesn't eat dairy. He avoids nuts. He doesn't drink red wine (I do). He "likes" salads and veggies. He has a lot of stress. He "misses" vegetables and does really like beets, which I can give or take. He eats less basic white wheat things like bread and pretzels which I love. He eats fried food and I NEVER do. I get exercise and he doesn't.
I think one single pill of b spectrum vitamin can help very occasionally (like maybe once a quarter) if you have had some sort of onslaught of unusual stress and feel run down and overwhelmed. Like you are going through grief or you move house and start a new job. I think that is the only supplement I ever do now.
@jessica2
What I do not understand is why pasteurization is such a big concern if we are indeed eating any cooked foods containing VA such as beef/bison. Would not the cooking process convert any VA in that over to RA as well? or am I misunderstanding something?
@davidw I think you have a very good working hypothesis.
Problems may arise with taking flaxseed oil. Apparently there is a balancing act of AL/ALA and too much omega 3 can interfere with omega 6 absorption. Higher w3 will eventually lead to easy bruising/bleeding, thin skin etc. Bodybio (the Kane's) suggest a 4:1 ratio in favor of w6, according to Peskin, the proper ratio is: Parent Omega-6 to Parent Omega-3 = 1:1 to 4:1. His formulation is 2:1 ratio in favor of w6. Udo Erasmus (Flora brand) 2:1 in favor of w3.
Curious as to why no meat?
Also, I do not think vitamin C is useless, although we do not need high doses. As you are probably aware PUFAs are highly sensitive to oxidation. Vitamin C and other antioxidants like zinc are protective.
There is just something to this dairy thing. Smith stated in his paper on his old research forum that, "we have the major proteins in milk that have ALSO been shown to carry Poison/"Vitamin A" around! This includes the two main dairy proteins, CASEIN and WHEY..." These would not be the same as retinol binding proteins, would they? any potential that's a good thing, there for protection?