I needed to disable self sign-ups because I’ve been getting too many spam-type accounts. Thanks.
Tips on how do you slow down the detox.
Hi @jessica2,
There are studies showing that pasteurization of milk does indeed reduce its vA content, by about 20%. So, the question then becomes what has actually happened to the difference. I could not find a study that confirmed that it was converted into RA.
RA would be detectable (if present) using HPLC.
Grant
Quote from PJ on April 4, 2023, 2:20 pm@jessica2
What I do not understand is why pasteurization is such a big concern if we are indeed eating any cooked foods containing VA such as beef/bison. Would not the cooking process convert any VA in that over to RA as well? or am I misunderstanding something?
Milk has a tremendous amount more VA than beef or bison, so I’m not sure it’s comparable. I would also like to think that freshly cooked beef would not undergo the same degree of chemical alteration as ultra-heat treated milk that has been in storage at room temperature for a couple of months.
I do have an example that may be comparable however…
In the past, Grant has posted about the scurvy epidemic that plagued ships in the 18th and 19th century. Around this time ships happened to carry around a staple food called “portable soup”.
The portable soup was basically beef organs (high VA) which were boiled at high heat over extended periods of time until they were dried and gelatinous.
Portable soup was known to have lasted years.
I have to strongly disagree with you on vitamin C. From the studies that I’ve read and from my own personal experience, it’s far from useless.
I don’t think it slows down detox… if anything I think it speeds it up. What it does do is protect from detox in my experience. My teeth have been getting killed lately, with plaque, gum recession and other issues. When I added vitamin C (via diet or supplementation) it made a world of difference.
From the studies that I’ve read, vitamin C intake seems to protect against gallstones and NAFLD development, all while helping maintain desirable bile acid ratios. To me this signals that it plays a significant role in maintaining the health of the hepatobiliary system which as we know is critical for detoxification, gastro-intestinal health and health in general.
I will say though that I think it would be best to get Vitamin C from natural sources if possible rather than supplement.
@davidw Yes, my hunch would be that we don't need any Vitamin A at all. If we lived our lives again I wouldnt eat much Vitamin A or high carotenoids and at worst some seasonally. However, in the situation of Vitamin A toxicity going to zero doesnt work very effectively without sufficient nutrition but you get that also I think. Grant somehow managed this with bison and beans but not many have replicated it. In the same way coming off some drugs needs to be tapered off a similar approach is needed for a smoother Vitamin A detox. The eggs helped my smoother detox.
You've got it absolutely right. The choline is removing far more Vitamin A from the liver than simply doing a zero Vitamin A diet. It's net benefits of including eggs which also have biotin to remove more vitamin A. This is backed up by studies showing choline et al can recover you from fatty liver disease. Two people with some health issues have been tested after being very low serum retinol and the eggs made it jump up again. Better to be free of health problems with some egg intake than have eye problems on a low serum retinol.
My second stage after choline replenishment with increased fibre from cruciferous vegetables, onions, organic spelt, potatoes and parsnips is going great confirming what you say also. Feeding the bacteria and correcting the imbalance that the detox may have done to me or was there before.
Since there is no vitamin-A/carotene free world, it makes sense to me that animals and birds would give their babies the antidote to these things in the egg or milk. It makes sense to me that it would ameliorate (at least) the normal amounts in such a food. Whether there is a lot of antidote left after that is another question. That might be down to the particular situation.
Interesting thoughts here about heating milk! And silly me I often do heat the raw milk that I spend so much money on LOL. I will try not heating it and see if there is a difference.
I'm in the camp of: reasonable amounts of fiber helps the process and you will be able to eat more with time. I make kraut and it has fiber and vitamin C , while not having much VA, and also having good bacteria. I don't eat a lot of it, but I get an urge for it now and then. I also get strong urges for nuts such as peanuts and walnuts.
I'm not sure it has been mentioned here but I think that alcohol can deter a detox process in progress. Whether that is for good or bad lol, I don't know. Sort of like putting out a fire with a bomb.
Don't skip meals. Almost a sure way to start up some detox symptoms IMO. It seems to me that you need to keep up the protein input or maybe just not have an empty system.
I have become close to a family of Nepalese people and they always heated their (buffalo) milk in Nepal. It is not the first time I've encountered people from older traditions who don't drink raw (as Weston Price writers would have us think). The process of making ghee is ...wow! a very lengthy heating, and it is considered a health food in Hindu traditions.
So... perhaps the antidote still works after heating. ? but who knows.
Maybe the people who have trouble with dairy are just people like my husband who are not tolerant of it.
Quote from Audrey on April 4, 2023, 1:42 pmQuote from sand on April 4, 2023, 1:06 pmAnother propaganda post by the egg heads. This is so cringe. All beliefs, and nothing to back anything up with.
What kind of back up would be useful?
Some blood tests would be nice to be honest.
Some pretty bold claims are being made so why not attempt to validate them.
Quote from lil chick on April 5, 2023, 6:07 amI have become close to a family of Nepalese people and they always heated their (buffalo) milk in Nepal. It is not the first time I've encountered people from older traditions who don't drink raw (as Weston Price writers would have us think). The process of making ghee is ...wow! a very lengthy heating, and it is considered a health food in Hindu traditions.
So... perhaps the antidote still works after heating. ? but who knows.
Maybe the people who have trouble with dairy are just people like my husband who are not tolerant of it.
With ghee, they remove all the milk solids. This should mean (by inference) the caseine is removed. If caseine binds the RA, perhaps that ghee clarifying process makes it a low-VA food, and thus healthy. I'd love to see tests done on ghee for VA, RA, caseine content, etc.
It would be interesting to know the general health of people in Nepal. I seem to recall they add Yak butter to their barley tea. Something about the altitude and dry air, they burn a lot of calories so they need the butter to stay warm. What is their lifespan? Do they have similar body types and health profile to the Inuit doing their traditional high fat diet? And in the case of the Nepalese, I believe barley is a large part of their diet, is the betaine and dietary fiber in the barley giving them protection from the milk? Does the altitude change how the heat alters the milk? Are they really putting butter in their tea, or is it ghee?
Quote from Audrey on April 5, 2023, 8:22 am@davidw I'm curious how cold pressed flaxseed oil fits into your plan... this is the first time I've heard it being used on this diet.
I have a friend in his sixties. He didn't think much of the Budwig protocol, but he did say when he was taking a tablespoon a day of cold pressed flaxseed oil, his joint pain went away. So I got the linseed oil from the Budwig protocol. I actually made some quark from raw milk, it is nice, but it would be nice to know how to do RA/VA testing so I can test things like the raw whey, the quark, and ghee. Budwig was big on preserving the good PUFA and not letting it get damaged, she felt it would easily become harmful. Perhaps a repeat of the mouse experiments on zero PUFA, then just test all the different oils in the supermarket to see which ones help. I find the mouse experiments really convincing. If there was some government department with a budget for doing studies, this forum is a goldmine for experiments that need to be done, and apparently haven't.
Grant had a teaspoon of olive oil per day in his diet; I would continue that in my plan, maybe even boost it to a tablespoon. It does make the diet way more tasty. But from what I've read in this forum over the past couple days, now I won't cook with it, I'd add it to the food once it had cooled a bit. Now that I think about it, I seem to recall some old Italians doing it that way. Adding the EVOO afterward as a condiment, not as a cooking aid. Maybe they were onto something.