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Viktor's progress

#41 · June 10, 2024, 2:33 pm

I am not dogmatic about it, I will eat eggs if it doesn't bother my rash. Liver is just a no go for me. Full of copper and retinol. But if it's working for you great, glad you are not feeling awful anymore. I hope you continue updating us through the yrs, it's so hard to keep track of people who do get better because they never come back but then we never know if they died or what!

I think vitamin D is necessary, I just prefer to get it from the sun. And if not then fish is the only other answer which northern people would have gotten quite a lot of. (unless you are native american living in Nebraska! then they were probably outside enough to keep levels high through winter)

And of course it isn't great to only tolerate a few foods, I think Grant would actually tolerate quite a lot more (except onions!), but he chooses not to try because he's proving a point for science with the zero vitamin A.

#42 · June 11, 2024, 2:53 am

Quote from Viktor on June 11, 2024, 2:53 am

Quote from Janelle525 on June 10, 2024, 2:33 pm

I am not dogmatic about it, I will eat eggs if it doesn't bother my rash. Liver is just a no go for me. Full of copper and retinol. But if it's working for you great, glad you are not feeling awful anymore. I hope you continue updating us through the yrs, it's so hard to keep track of people who do get better because they never come back but then we never know if they died or what!

I think vitamin D is necessary, I just prefer to get it from the sun. And if not then fish is the only other answer which northern people would have gotten quite a lot of. (unless you are native american living in Nebraska! then they were probably outside enough to keep levels high through winter)

And of course it isn't great to only tolerate a few foods, I think Grant would actually tolerate quite a lot more (except onions!), but he chooses not to try because he's proving a point for science with the zero vitamin A.

The liver pate I'm eating has pork liver as the main ingredient - it's lover in retinol that beef and chicken livers, higher in iron and contains far less copper. According to google, 100 grams (3.5 oz) provide 5405μg of A and 0.6 mg of copper, the latter being just a third of the RDA (take into account that that amount of pork liver would be a week total for most people).

If you haven't gotten your vit D tested, I highly recommed it. I have tons of SNPs corellated with D deficiency and after stopping supplements around a month and a half ago thinking I'd just be getting mine from the sun, my blood D dropped by 30 ng/mL in just a month. The level itself was still okay-ish but damn, that was a brutal realization lol

On the other hand, I've come to dislike hot summer weather over the past years, so knowing that it doesn't do much for my 25-OH helps me avoid spending time in the sun and get all the pleasure of being outdoors in the shade.

Regarding the liver itself, there was a post on Ray Peat's forum, in which a guy was asking a simple question: what's that in the liver that makes him feel good but any supplementation of what liver is full of (retinol, copper, b vitamins, zinc, etc) doesn't have the same effect? I've been wondering the same thing. I could eat eggs and cheese on my good days, as well as bad ones. I think eggs in general are a very nutritious food but they didn't give any of the mental, physical and metabolic benefits I experience after eating some liver.

One other "test" I can measure my metabolic state at any given moment with is my reaction to coffee and tea. "Normal" people experience a strong pick-me-up effect right after drinking it (except for those who barely feel anything due to being genetically fast caffeine metabolizers, and I've personally known several such people, one of whom confirmed by genetic profiling he indeed was a rapid metabolizer). I'm a slow metabolizer, so I can expect a noticeable and prolonged reaction to caffeine. When my metabolism is good, coffee energizes me and may even cause some anxiety and restlessness. When I'm off, it makes me even more tired. It's like my adrenals are so screwed that stimulating them even more makes the body want to completely shut down. I'm not saying one should rely on caffeine to get through the day. When I feel good, I'm perfectly capable of living without it.

I'll still post updates about my health, of course. I'm not 100% metabolically perfect despite the fact that I can eat high-carotene berries on a daily basis. I'll re-test my iron/ferritin/25-OH by the end of June as long as the nearby lab has special offers on such tests.

Quote from Janelle525 on June 10, 2024, 2:33 pm

I am not dogmatic about it, I will eat eggs if it doesn't bother my rash. Liver is just a no go for me. Full of copper and retinol. But if it's working for you great, glad you are not feeling awful anymore. I hope you continue updating us through the yrs, it's so hard to keep track of people who do get better because they never come back but then we never know if they died or what!

I think vitamin D is necessary, I just prefer to get it from the sun. And if not then fish is the only other answer which northern people would have gotten quite a lot of. (unless you are native american living in Nebraska! then they were probably outside enough to keep levels high through winter)

And of course it isn't great to only tolerate a few foods, I think Grant would actually tolerate quite a lot more (except onions!), but he chooses not to try because he's proving a point for science with the zero vitamin A.

The liver pate I'm eating has pork liver as the main ingredient - it's lover in retinol that beef and chicken livers, higher in iron and contains far less copper. According to google, 100 grams (3.5 oz) provide 5405μg of A and 0.6 mg of copper, the latter being just a third of the RDA (take into account that that amount of pork liver would be a week total for most people).

If you haven't gotten your vit D tested, I highly recommed it. I have tons of SNPs corellated with D deficiency and after stopping supplements around a month and a half ago thinking I'd just be getting mine from the sun, my blood D dropped by 30 ng/mL in just a month. The level itself was still okay-ish but damn, that was a brutal realization lol

On the other hand, I've come to dislike hot summer weather over the past years, so knowing that it doesn't do much for my 25-OH helps me avoid spending time in the sun and get all the pleasure of being outdoors in the shade.

Regarding the liver itself, there was a post on Ray Peat's forum, in which a guy was asking a simple question: what's that in the liver that makes him feel good but any supplementation of what liver is full of (retinol, copper, b vitamins, zinc, etc) doesn't have the same effect? I've been wondering the same thing. I could eat eggs and cheese on my good days, as well as bad ones. I think eggs in general are a very nutritious food but they didn't give any of the mental, physical and metabolic benefits I experience after eating some liver.

One other "test" I can measure my metabolic state at any given moment with is my reaction to coffee and tea. "Normal" people experience a strong pick-me-up effect right after drinking it (except for those who barely feel anything due to being genetically fast caffeine metabolizers, and I've personally known several such people, one of whom confirmed by genetic profiling he indeed was a rapid metabolizer). I'm a slow metabolizer, so I can expect a noticeable and prolonged reaction to caffeine. When my metabolism is good, coffee energizes me and may even cause some anxiety and restlessness. When I'm off, it makes me even more tired. It's like my adrenals are so screwed that stimulating them even more makes the body want to completely shut down. I'm not saying one should rely on caffeine to get through the day. When I feel good, I'm perfectly capable of living without it.

I'll still post updates about my health, of course. I'm not 100% metabolically perfect despite the fact that I can eat high-carotene berries on a daily basis. I'll re-test my iron/ferritin/25-OH by the end of June as long as the nearby lab has special offers on such tests.

lil chick has reacted to this post.

#43 · June 11, 2024, 5:09 am

I suppose you could liken your idea to one I read somewhere long ago of (supposedly) doling out small amounts of liver to everyone in the tribe when a big animal was taken by the hunters. A pate appetizer could be an easy way of getting something like that done. There sure seems to be a long history of eating liver. It also went into sausage with other meats, which is another way for everyone to get small amounts.

Personally I'm betting that the magic ingredient is b vitamins and nutrients needed for their usage. I do not think it's the VA. So choose young purple not old yellow liver.

I remember one WAPF chapter leader who got a great deal on liver from her local beef farmer, and ate it daily and had bad results. It was one of the first clues that reached my ear on Grant's topic of VA overload. She was substituting liver as her meat portion for the day, and that was too much.

I have this idea (that I got when I was a WAPF'er) that the animals you eat from... can eat your veggies for you. I remember especially the thought that if your kid was getting good dairy it would make up for the kid hating veggies. I agree. The animals eat "the rainbow of veggies and fruits" so you don't have to. People who do that AND eat the rainbow TOO are getting a double dose of what is bad about the rainbow.

Personally I think you can thrive without liver if you are eating from this list: eggs, dairy, seafoods, fish. But maybe if you can't or won't, small amounts of young liver might be a great idea. Perhaps also on this list could be other organ meats, such as heart.

Viktor has reacted to this post.

#44 · June 11, 2024, 7:07 am

Quote from Viktor on June 11, 2024, 7:07 am

Quote from lil chick on June 11, 2024, 5:09 am

I suppose you could liken your idea to one I read somewhere long ago of (supposedly) doling out small amounts of liver to everyone in the tribe when a big animal was taken by the hunters. A pate appetizer could be an easy way of getting something like that done. There sure seems to be a long history of eating liver. It also went into sausage with other meats, which is another way for everyone to get small amounts.

Personally I'm betting that the magic ingredient is b vitamins and nutrients needed for their usage. I do not think it's the VA. So choose young purple not old yellow liver.

I remember one WAPF chapter leader who got a great deal on liver from her local beef farmer, and ate it daily and had bad results. It was one of the first clues that reached my ear on Grant's topic of VA overload. She was substituting liver as her meat portion for the day, and that was too much.

I have this idea (that I got when I was a WAPF'er) that the animals you eat from... can eat your veggies for you. I remember especially the thought that if your kid was getting good dairy it would make up for the kid hating veggies. I agree. The animals eat "the rainbow of veggies and fruits" so you don't have to. People who do that AND eat the rainbow TOO are getting a double dose of what is bad about the rainbow.

Personally I think you can thrive without liver if you are eating from this list: eggs, dairy, seafoods, fish. But maybe if you can't or won't, small amounts of young liver might be a great idea. Perhaps also on this list could be other organ meats, such as heart.

I used to eat liver as a main meat course several times a week, because I figured that for roughly the same price as the regular chicken or beef, liver's nutrient density is unparalleled (which is true). I wondered if one could get retinol toxicity from eating it but carnivore "gurus" on Youtube assured everyone that that wasn't possible from natural sources lmao That was like 6 years ago, and maybe the situation has changed since.

One of them even said that if it was true, there would be studies to show that. Now I understand that: 1) I don't need any studies to prove that some things are good for me, and some aren't; 2) there's actually been multiple studies describing vitamin A toxicity from eating high amounts of liver.

I've been eating eggs, high-quality dairy, fish and seafood on a regular basis for about two years, I'd say, but it never made me feel good the way small quantities of liver do. I'll do my best to finally put an end to my remaining food intolerances and be able to eat like a "normal person", by which I mean people who aren't necessarily in great shape (although we don't have lots of overweight people around) but can eat whatever they please without worrying that "that high-carotene meal will make me feel bad" or "the lectins will screw me up", "the gluten in the bread will surely mess up my well-being" and such. Allergies or known and confirm sensitivities are a different thing, of course, but other than that everyone should be able to eat eveything in healhy and moderate amounts and feel better as a result, not worse.

That's my experience, and I'm not saying that eating liver is a must for everyone, like breathing oxygen or drinking water, it's surely not. I'd even say that the majority of people don't consume it on a regular basis, and I know folks who can't stand liver in any form and are still active and doing fine. Also, moderation is key, and having adequate vitamin D stores may help in some cases, but not others, and probably isn't the ultimate protection against retinol toxicity. Actually, the majority of people where I live are vitamin D deficient almost all year round, and if even small amounts of liver were harmful in such cases, there wouldn't be any pate in grocery stores, as well as no retinol-containing skincare products. But no one has ever complained to me about possible retinol toxicity and I was the only one feeling like crap when I used to over-eat liver lol

Had I cut my intake at least in half during those days, I wouldn't have screwed myself up so badly.

Quote from lil chick on June 11, 2024, 5:09 am

I suppose you could liken your idea to one I read somewhere long ago of (supposedly) doling out small amounts of liver to everyone in the tribe when a big animal was taken by the hunters. A pate appetizer could be an easy way of getting something like that done. There sure seems to be a long history of eating liver. It also went into sausage with other meats, which is another way for everyone to get small amounts.

Personally I'm betting that the magic ingredient is b vitamins and nutrients needed for their usage. I do not think it's the VA. So choose young purple not old yellow liver.

I remember one WAPF chapter leader who got a great deal on liver from her local beef farmer, and ate it daily and had bad results. It was one of the first clues that reached my ear on Grant's topic of VA overload. She was substituting liver as her meat portion for the day, and that was too much.

I have this idea (that I got when I was a WAPF'er) that the animals you eat from... can eat your veggies for you. I remember especially the thought that if your kid was getting good dairy it would make up for the kid hating veggies. I agree. The animals eat "the rainbow of veggies and fruits" so you don't have to. People who do that AND eat the rainbow TOO are getting a double dose of what is bad about the rainbow.

Personally I think you can thrive without liver if you are eating from this list: eggs, dairy, seafoods, fish. But maybe if you can't or won't, small amounts of young liver might be a great idea. Perhaps also on this list could be other organ meats, such as heart.

I used to eat liver as a main meat course several times a week, because I figured that for roughly the same price as the regular chicken or beef, liver's nutrient density is unparalleled (which is true). I wondered if one could get retinol toxicity from eating it but carnivore "gurus" on Youtube assured everyone that that wasn't possible from natural sources lmao That was like 6 years ago, and maybe the situation has changed since.

One of them even said that if it was true, there would be studies to show that. Now I understand that: 1) I don't need any studies to prove that some things are good for me, and some aren't; 2) there's actually been multiple studies describing vitamin A toxicity from eating high amounts of liver.

I've been eating eggs, high-quality dairy, fish and seafood on a regular basis for about two years, I'd say, but it never made me feel good the way small quantities of liver do. I'll do my best to finally put an end to my remaining food intolerances and be able to eat like a "normal person", by which I mean people who aren't necessarily in great shape (although we don't have lots of overweight people around) but can eat whatever they please without worrying that "that high-carotene meal will make me feel bad" or "the lectins will screw me up", "the gluten in the bread will surely mess up my well-being" and such. Allergies or known and confirm sensitivities are a different thing, of course, but other than that everyone should be able to eat eveything in healhy and moderate amounts and feel better as a result, not worse.

That's my experience, and I'm not saying that eating liver is a must for everyone, like breathing oxygen or drinking water, it's surely not. I'd even say that the majority of people don't consume it on a regular basis, and I know folks who can't stand liver in any form and are still active and doing fine. Also, moderation is key, and having adequate vitamin D stores may help in some cases, but not others, and probably isn't the ultimate protection against retinol toxicity. Actually, the majority of people where I live are vitamin D deficient almost all year round, and if even small amounts of liver were harmful in such cases, there wouldn't be any pate in grocery stores, as well as no retinol-containing skincare products. But no one has ever complained to me about possible retinol toxicity and I was the only one feeling like crap when I used to over-eat liver lol

Had I cut my intake at least in half during those days, I wouldn't have screwed myself up so badly.

lil chick and Donald have reacted to this post.

#45 · June 11, 2024, 8:25 am

You mentioned you don't tolerate beans, how much soluble fiber do you get?

#46 · June 11, 2024, 9:01 am

Quote from Janelle525 on June 11, 2024, 8:25 am

You mentioned you don't tolerate beans, how much soluble fiber do you get?

I never counted it really. If bananas, kiwis, apples, blueberries, strawberries and buckwheat contain some soluble fiber, I get that.

#47 · June 11, 2024, 11:38 am

Quote from Viktor on June 11, 2024, 9:01 am

Quote from Janelle525 on June 11, 2024, 8:25 am

You mentioned you don't tolerate beans, how much soluble fiber do you get?

I never counted it really. If bananas, kiwis, apples, blueberries, strawberries and buckwheat contain some soluble fiber, I get that.

Ok so barely any. That is why you don't tolerate beans. Your bile is too toxic. This goes away as you get the bile better. And then you may find you don't need stimulating foods like fructose and liver to feel good.

#48 · June 11, 2024, 12:26 pm

Quote from Janelle525 on June 11, 2024, 11:38 am

Quote from Viktor on June 11, 2024, 9:01 am

Quote from Janelle525 on June 11, 2024, 8:25 am

You mentioned you don't tolerate beans, how much soluble fiber do you get?

I never counted it really. If bananas, kiwis, apples, blueberries, strawberries and buckwheat contain some soluble fiber, I get that.

Ok so barely any. That is why you don't tolerate beans. Your bile is too toxic. This goes away as you get the bile better. And then you may find you don't need stimulating foods like fructose and liver to feel good.

@janelle525 If I remember correctly I believe @viktor was eating beans daily for 1-2 years on Garret's plan without Vit A foods and he was getting worse from that not better.

"Your bile is too toxic" - It's not as black as white as you put it, you act like this theory is the absolute truth to every situation including this one when it probably has nothing to do with that.

And about people feeling energy from Vitamin A, well when I have tried thyroid hormone in the past vs eating high Vit A foods the effects were similar, so it could just be the Vitamin A increasing thyroid activity which makes people feel this. And sure people might not like this feeling of ceruloplasmin being raised from the Vit A as now they will get an increase in adrenaline and dopamine which they weren't having before. A lot of people aren't even getting the iron they consume made into dopamine because of a broken metabolism. Also as thyroid activity increases oxidative stress increases so that could be another reason why people don't like the feeling of high Vit A foods, if they are not able to handle the oxidative stress due to poor glutathione status.

#49 · June 11, 2024, 12:50 pm

Actually just read this now from Viktor he tried low Vit A for 3 years it seems: "Honestly, that should be the best thought of the day. I stopped buying this "detoxing symptoms that get worse before they get better, even after three years" kind of bull***t. Low vit A diets are very restrictive to begin with, and by eating only rice and meat people may not realize they're not doing any good to their bodies. I still can't eat lots of food groups but I try my best to get a varied diet."

Donald has reacted to this post.

#50 · June 11, 2024, 4:07 pm

Quote from Janelle525 on June 11, 2024, 4:07 pm

Quote from Alex on June 11, 2024, 12:26 pm

Quote from Janelle525 on June 11, 2024, 11:38 am

Quote from Viktor on June 11, 2024, 9:01 am

Quote from Janelle525 on June 11, 2024, 8:25 am

You mentioned you don't tolerate beans, how much soluble fiber do you get?

I never counted it really. If bananas, kiwis, apples, blueberries, strawberries and buckwheat contain some soluble fiber, I get that.

Ok so barely any. That is why you don't tolerate beans. Your bile is too toxic. This goes away as you get the bile better. And then you may find you don't need stimulating foods like fructose and liver to feel good.

@janelle525 If I remember correctly I believe @viktor was eating beans daily for 1-2 years on Garret's plan without Vit A foods and he was getting worse from that not better.

"Your bile is too toxic" - It's not as black as white as you put it, you act like this theory is the absolute truth to every situation including this one when it probably has nothing to do with that.

And about people feeling energy from Vitamin A, well when I have tried thyroid hormone in the past vs eating high Vit A foods the effects were similar, so it could just be the Vitamin A increasing thyroid activity which makes people feel this. And sure people might not like this feeling of ceruloplasmin being raised from the Vit A as now they will get an increase in adrenaline and dopamine which they weren't having before. A lot of people aren't even getting the iron they consume made into dopamine because of a broken metabolism. Also as thyroid activity increases oxidative stress increases so that could be another reason why people don't like the feeling of high Vit A foods, if they are not able to handle the oxidative stress due to poor glutathione status.

I went back and looked, he said beans didn't work for him, he got IBS feelings from them, so I don't know how you can interpret that as he ate them everyday for 1-2 yrs.

I also would get IBS, and that has completely healed. My gut is normal again no matter how much fiber I eat. I believe it's SIBO and he clearly avoids fiber due to this problem because of the side effects. I did the same on the Ray Peat diet. Everyone influenced by Ray Peat believes soluble fiber isn't necessary. I don't need sugar anymore, I don't need stimulants anymore and my metabolism is coming back online I hit 99.1 for most of the day. No supps other than 200 mg ascorbic acid. I eat pasta, with a 1/2 tsp of butter, and blacks beans for breakfast, white rice, black beans, and 10% ground beef for lunch, and then some kind of meat, starch and beans for dinner, not avoiding tomatoes anymore, I eat salsa occasionally, along with some cheese when I feel like it, but minimal dairy right now, but if I did eat it I think I'd be okay as long as fat doesn't go too high. Whole wheat crackers for snacks. Beans, beans, beans. Carbs carbs carbs. Why such focus on micros? Without enough glucose to the brain nothing is coming online. Fructose poisons the liver and doesn't cross the blood brain barrier and also turns to lactate, another back up fuel to glucose. People are trying to use back up fuels like lactate and ketones when they could just use starch and glucose. We turn to stimulating foods when there isn't enough glucose.

Quote from Alex on June 11, 2024, 12:26 pm

Quote from Janelle525 on June 11, 2024, 11:38 am

Quote from Viktor on June 11, 2024, 9:01 am

Quote from Janelle525 on June 11, 2024, 8:25 am

You mentioned you don't tolerate beans, how much soluble fiber do you get?

I never counted it really. If bananas, kiwis, apples, blueberries, strawberries and buckwheat contain some soluble fiber, I get that.

Ok so barely any. That is why you don't tolerate beans. Your bile is too toxic. This goes away as you get the bile better. And then you may find you don't need stimulating foods like fructose and liver to feel good.

@janelle525 If I remember correctly I believe @viktor was eating beans daily for 1-2 years on Garret's plan without Vit A foods and he was getting worse from that not better.

"Your bile is too toxic" - It's not as black as white as you put it, you act like this theory is the absolute truth to every situation including this one when it probably has nothing to do with that.

And about people feeling energy from Vitamin A, well when I have tried thyroid hormone in the past vs eating high Vit A foods the effects were similar, so it could just be the Vitamin A increasing thyroid activity which makes people feel this. And sure people might not like this feeling of ceruloplasmin being raised from the Vit A as now they will get an increase in adrenaline and dopamine which they weren't having before. A lot of people aren't even getting the iron they consume made into dopamine because of a broken metabolism. Also as thyroid activity increases oxidative stress increases so that could be another reason why people don't like the feeling of high Vit A foods, if they are not able to handle the oxidative stress due to poor glutathione status.

I went back and looked, he said beans didn't work for him, he got IBS feelings from them, so I don't know how you can interpret that as he ate them everyday for 1-2 yrs.

I also would get IBS, and that has completely healed. My gut is normal again no matter how much fiber I eat. I believe it's SIBO and he clearly avoids fiber due to this problem because of the side effects. I did the same on the Ray Peat diet. Everyone influenced by Ray Peat believes soluble fiber isn't necessary. I don't need sugar anymore, I don't need stimulants anymore and my metabolism is coming back online I hit 99.1 for most of the day. No supps other than 200 mg ascorbic acid. I eat pasta, with a 1/2 tsp of butter, and blacks beans for breakfast, white rice, black beans, and 10% ground beef for lunch, and then some kind of meat, starch and beans for dinner, not avoiding tomatoes anymore, I eat salsa occasionally, along with some cheese when I feel like it, but minimal dairy right now, but if I did eat it I think I'd be okay as long as fat doesn't go too high. Whole wheat crackers for snacks. Beans, beans, beans. Carbs carbs carbs. Why such focus on micros? Without enough glucose to the brain nothing is coming online. Fructose poisons the liver and doesn't cross the blood brain barrier and also turns to lactate, another back up fuel to glucose. People are trying to use back up fuels like lactate and ketones when they could just use starch and glucose. We turn to stimulating foods when there isn't enough glucose.

puddleduck has reacted to this post.

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