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Wahl's talking vitamin A
So, I finally sat down and watched the ENTIRE Wahls interview, not just bits and pieces, LOL. It seems to me there are some large areas of overlap that are interesting between Grant's diet and Wahls. Of course some things are different as well. I'm going by memory here and please excuse me if I get things wrong. At the base of it, Wahls protocol could be summed up as: gut overhaul while eating meat and greens.
OVERLAP:
Both think VC has a role to play. Wahls is perhaps gotten in the veg/fruits while Grant in occasional supplements.
Both think VA has a very tight range of safety, both think that it is hard to detoxify VA, both think VA can cause damage
Both do not include dairy, gluten, eggs, sugar.
Wahls also mentioned some other "baddies" that I think neither of them include: nightshades, Emulsifiers, alcohol? meds?
Exercise and rest seem important to both: AND BOTH BIKE! 🙂
Areas of NON-overlap:
Grant includes Carbs (rice), carbs are limited very strictly by Wahls who I don't think allows any grains or white carbs.
Wahls directly addresses gut reform. Tackling problem biome, bile insufficiency, lack of stomach acid. Soil based probiotics, bile salts?, ACV, kraut juice, "fire cider", kvass, pancreatic enzymes, collagen and broths and "elemental formulas" rather than food for those who have totally broken guts. Some people are taken off of lectins by Wahls (so beans would be out) but only if needed.
While Grant is totally against all high sources of VA, Wahls recommends a Weekly small serving of liver (for the minerals and vitamins) and lots of colorful veggies, she may also eat caviar it isn't clear.
One of the things that occurs to me lately is that you need to do the right thing even if it doesn't cure you right away. Gosh that is like getting off the bus at the right time, but not knowing the name of your station.
I'm starting to feel a little weird in the gut now after a week and a half dosing B complex and B12 daily. So I'm going to back off. I'll probably end up writing up something in my log about it in more detail.
Wahls recommends a Weekly small serving of liver (for the minerals and vitamins) and lots of colorful veggies
Well, half life of carotenoids is huge so might as well pulse veggies too(together with liver). But every week is still too often imho, at most every 2 weeks to reload copper and A deposits and to still give a body some middle ground to balance around their intakes.
Serum carotenoid depletion follows first-order kinetics in healthy adult women fed naturally low carotenoid diets
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11481400/
Dietary intakes of carotenoids are highly variable in human populations as are serum carotenoid concentrations. However, there are few controlled data relating carotenoid intake to concentration. Most of the data that are available are from measurements of the absorption and decay of large pharmacologic doses of carotenoids, and are therefore of unknown physiologic relevance. Our objective was to determine the half-life (t(1/2)) of the most abundant carotenoids in blood serum from healthy adult women living under controlled conditions. As part of two carotenoid isotopic studies, we measured serum concentrations of beta-carotene, alpha-carotene, lutein, zeaxanthin, beta-cryptoxanthin and lycopene in 19 healthy young adult women that were fed controlled low carotenoid diets for approximately 10 wk. All other nutrients (vitamins A, E and C) were provided at 100-150% of the 1989 U.S. recommended dietary allowance levels. Exercise and activities were controlled throughout the studies to simulate usual activity patterns. Carotenoid concentrations were measured by reversed-phase HPLC. Serum carotenoid concentration decreases during depletion followed first-order kinetics. The half-lives determined in decreasing order were as follows: lutein (76 d) > alpha-carotene (45 d) = beta-cryptoxanthin (39 d) = zeaxanthin (38 d) = beta-carotene (37 d) > lycopene (26 d). Half-lives were unrelated to physical or demographic characteristics such as body mass, body fat, racial background or age in these relatively homogeneous groups. Carotenoids decreased by similar first-order mechanisms, although the rates differed for individual carotenoids.
^^
There was a person or RP forum reporting feeling worse and worse - maybe the reason for it being a very slow release of carotenoids out of blood.
Also:
β-carotene and retinol contents in the meat of herbivorous ungulates with a special reference to their public health importance
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4785134/
Quote from rockarolla on March 15, 2021, 1:14 pmWahls recommends a Weekly small serving of liver (for the minerals and vitamins) and lots of colorful veggies
Well, half life of carotenoids is huge so might as well pulse veggies too(together with liver). But every week is still too often imho, at most every 2 weeks to reload copper and A deposits and to still give a body some middle ground to balance around their intakes.
Serum carotenoid depletion follows first-order kinetics in healthy adult women fed naturally low carotenoid diets
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11481400/Dietary intakes of carotenoids are highly variable in human populations as are serum carotenoid concentrations. However, there are few controlled data relating carotenoid intake to concentration. Most of the data that are available are from measurements of the absorption and decay of large pharmacologic doses of carotenoids, and are therefore of unknown physiologic relevance. Our objective was to determine the half-life (t(1/2)) of the most abundant carotenoids in blood serum from healthy adult women living under controlled conditions. As part of two carotenoid isotopic studies, we measured serum concentrations of beta-carotene, alpha-carotene, lutein, zeaxanthin, beta-cryptoxanthin and lycopene in 19 healthy young adult women that were fed controlled low carotenoid diets for approximately 10 wk. All other nutrients (vitamins A, E and C) were provided at 100-150% of the 1989 U.S. recommended dietary allowance levels. Exercise and activities were controlled throughout the studies to simulate usual activity patterns. Carotenoid concentrations were measured by reversed-phase HPLC. Serum carotenoid concentration decreases during depletion followed first-order kinetics. The half-lives determined in decreasing order were as follows: lutein (76 d) > alpha-carotene (45 d) = beta-cryptoxanthin (39 d) = zeaxanthin (38 d) = beta-carotene (37 d) > lycopene (26 d). Half-lives were unrelated to physical or demographic characteristics such as body mass, body fat, racial background or age in these relatively homogeneous groups. Carotenoids decreased by similar first-order mechanisms, although the rates differed for individual carotenoids.
^^
There was a person or RP forum reporting feeling worse and worse - maybe the reason for it being a very slow release of carotenoids out of blood.
Also:
β-carotene and retinol contents in the meat of herbivorous ungulates with a special reference to their public health importance
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4785134/
+++ good overview:
α-Carotene, β-Carotene, β-Cryptoxanthin, Lycopene, Lutein, and Zeaxanthin
https://lpi.oregonstate.edu/mic/dietary-factors/phytochemicals/carotenoids
Unexpectedly, the risk of lung cancer in the groups taking β-carotene supplements was increased by 16% after six years in the ATBC participants and by 28% after four years in the CARET(β-Carotene And Retinol Efficacy Trial) participants.
I tried Wahl's protocol and it wrecked havoc on my gut! All those veggies! My gut got really inflammed and I had to stop after only a short period of time. She really packs them in - a cup of salad greens isn't loosly packed but tightly packed and it's amazing how many salad greens you can squash into a cup! It's really hard work eating that much plant matter.
Re eggs - I remember hearing an interview with her where she explained that she is allergic to eggs which is why she doesn't eat them. She went on to say that the people who fund the clinical trials of her protocol didn't want any deviations from what she did and that is why eggs aren't included for others either.
Quote from lil chick on March 15, 2021, 11:41 amI'm starting to feel a little weird in the gut now after a week and a half dosing B complex and B12 daily. So I'm going to back off. I'll probably end up writing up something in my log about it in more detail.
Just wanted to get this quickly in, we both started feeling uncomfortably and even visibly BLOATED taking DAILY 2K mcg B12 and a B complex. After about a week it became apparent for me, and then he chimed in. Perhaps too many changes too quick. Slow and steady is always best. Would like to hear theories. All of mine are kind of scary.
If you are an undermethylator and add in folate & B12 you can speed methylation up. However, if your downstream pathways are slow you can create a negative reaction & get a toxic build up, although I’m not sure that would cause bloating. My nutritional therapist added in folate & B12 later in her protocol treating me back in 2015. May not apply to you but that was my thought.
I think I am a person who needs to keep the Vitamin B complex to a minimum. Years ago I had anemia. I am sure it was because I wasn't eating enough red meat plus of the Vitamin A poisoning but I didn't know back then about Vitamin A poisoning. All I know is that I kept having eye problems. (which I still do) When I was anemic I had eye corneal ulcers. Anyways, my skin was yellow. But at the time I was taking a B complex. When I quit the B complex my skin got back to normal. My eyes got back to not having corneal ulcers when I wasn't anemic.
Anyways, when I started this detox a few weeks ago I had dropped all the supplements I had been taking. I did start a low zinc and a supposedly low dose Vitamin B as suggested for this program of detox. Well, with all those previous supplements I had dark orange pee. After I quit the pre detox vitamins, my pee turned clear. When I started these low dose supplements, my pee changed to bright yellow. I quit the supposedly low dose B vitamins and now its clear. What do I know? Not much but I wonder about B vitamin supplements. I took time to study different doses and I think the dose that I thought was low wasn't low enough.
Funny thing is that supposedly low dose I took I had taken the capsule apart and divided it into 8 capsules. So now I thought that is going to be low. But certainly it wasn't low for me. Maybe no B vitamin is best.
Yes the bright yellow pee is normal for B2 supplementation.
I think getting the Bs right is tricky. People who work with methylation genetics have very particular protocols for particular SNPs so if people add in Bs without this information they may or may not get it right.
However, people have very different protocols. Some swear by high dose B1, some swear by high dose B12. My nutritional therapist recommended (for me) holding off on folate & B12 until I’d got transulphuration going (slow due to pyroluria). Carolyn Ledowsky from MTHFRsupport.aus says hold off on folate to start with. My NT (Anne Pemberton) has a book coming out this year that may be very helpful if you have your genetic results. However, without this sort of information & expertise I think caution & some careful experimentation may be required.