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A theory on enhancing Vitamin A excretion by enhancing glucuronidation
https://ggenereux.blog/discussion/topic/riboflavins-role-in-an-important-va-detox-pathway/
I discussed retinyl beta-glucuronide and riboflavin here.
I’ve found the riboflavin (B2) thread very useful. B2 is also needed to activate B6. Lots of demands on it during the vA detox.
If the microbiome is responsible for the production of the majority of our Bs (as some scientists state) then a dysbiosis that results in low B2 production could be an issue while going through the vA detox. If I go back to my old OAT results (organic acids test from Great Plains laboratory) from before the vA detox then I was low in B2 and B6. This may reflect a microbiome that doesn’t make as much as needed. It makes me wonder if some people (including me) could be particularly vulnerable to B2 depletion during vA toxicity/ vA detox. My vA toxicity/detox eye symptoms would suggest this is true. I’ve looked at probiotics that particularly enhance B2 production as well as foods and supplements. Or maybe Dr Gominak is correct and we need all the Bs to feed all the species as some make one but need another? I think I’ve recently made my B2 deficiency worse by supplementing B1 for anxiety. Also adding too much B2 ‘stirs the pot’ (Lil Chick phrase). Dilemmas!!
Seems like B2 would be one of the easier nutrients to gauge deficiency in just by looking at how yellow your urine becomes after eating a concentrated dose. For me, even just eating some beef heart usually results in noticeably bright yellow urine within a couple hours, which I would assume means that my body can't use any more B2 at the moment. This, despite my having had a strange type of chronic diarrhea for a year now on low VA, but I largely subsist on meat, which has a fair amount of B2 in it.
The conclusion I've made is that yes we can have insufficient B vitamins in the diet, yes we can have insufficient production from intestinal flora, yes we can have a gut environment that destroys them, yes we can have absorption issues but I think an under appreciated issue is insufficient enzyme activity of B vitamin metabolizing enzymes.
I believe this is why people can take megadoses of thiamin and still be deficient. Their deficiency is obviously not caused by lack of the raw product, it's caused by their physiology not processing the raw product correctly. The cake has gone into the oven but the oven isn't hot enough to bake it. I'm critical of the idea that if thiamin megadoses don't work one should try fat soluble thiamin. Instead of recognizing the issue let's brute force thiamin where the body doesn't want it to go! Holding a horse's head underwater to force him to drink.
I've discussed how elevated retinoic acid causes transketolase deficiency. I suspect it affects many other enzymes involved in B vitamin metabolism. I'm not saying enzyme deficiencies are entirely due to retinoic acid but it's reassuring to know that lowering elevated levels of retinoic acid may go a long way to resolving B vitamin deficiencies.
It's exciting to think that reducing elevated retinoic acid levels may address a whole plethora of B vitamin related issues including B1, B2, folate and B12 issues.
Personally, I really feel better after B1. As if there really isn't enough raw product. But the effect is very short-lived (maximum day). It's not entirely clear what's going on. It seems that for me personally injections of thiamine hcl give the best effect. I have almost brought myself to anemia with thiamine supplements, and now I have stopped taking it.
It doesn't help my intestinal peristalsis.
And I have actually heard, oddly enough, some incredible success stories with fat-soluble forms.
@tim-2 I agree with your conclusions.
During active vA detox do you favour B vitamin supplements? I know you were taking Berroca at one point. I agree that this problem should balance out eventually but I think support may be necessary during vA removal phase? My fingernails seem to indicate some sort of B deficiency (if I believe the internet).
@wavygravygadzooks thanks you may well be right.
However, in this paper (Table 1) the main cause for riboflavin deficiency was ‘inherited riboflavin malabsorption/utilisation (10%–15% prevalence) [12]’ - this made me wonder if bright yellow wee indicates lack of absorption rather than repletion? I don’t know. I hadn’t realised this was such an issue specifically for B2.
Maybe somebody finds this interesting https://b12oils.com/rnb.htm
In general, I recommend avoiding taking supplements long term, particularly factory synthesized supplements due to subtle differences from naturally occurring vitamins. I personally didn't receive any noticeable benefit from trying out B vitamins while following a low vitamin A diet but you may be right about them being helpful for providing short term support.
Something that I think is important for everybody to do is to make sure they are consuming foods that are enabling them to obtain sufficient amounts of all the B vitamins in their diet. I include whole grains, legumes and pork which are rich in thiamine in my diet. I include mushrooms, beef and squid which are rich in riboflavin in my diet. I don't expect people here to approve of this but one of the reasons I think that a few eggs a week are helpful is because egg yolks are rich in biotin.
If one suspects B12 deficiency despite consuming an omnivorous diet then a B12 supplement can be life saving.
Many can metabolize folic acid despite its non-occurrence in nature however it is toxic for some, I recommend avoiding it as much as possible.
I would definitely avoid large amounts of B6.
I would tend to avoid large amounts of B1 and B2, going above amounts that are much higher than one would normally get in the diet doesn't make sense to me and can potentially create imbalances and dependencies.
My doctor says I am deficient in vitamin B12 even though I am on a carnivore diet, which should be high in B12.