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Carnivore and Bile Acid Malabsorption
It's worth keeping in mind that most carnivorous animals consume the organ meats of their prey including the liver which is rich in molybdenum, copper, vitamin K and folate. Carnivores produce their own vitamin C in large amounts. A human following a meat only diet will be deficient in vitamin C, molybdenum and folate three key nutrients for detoxification.
It also appears that thiamin, riboflavin and pantothenic acid deficiencies are common in those following low carb diets. It doesn't surprise me because animal fat is B vitamin free and gluconeogenesis is an inefficient and complex process that requires various B vitamins.
How long did it take for issues associated with vegetarian and vegan diets to be widely recognized? The macrobiotic diet? I'd say decades. Issues associated with the Weston Price diet and other high vitamin A diets haven't been recognized yet. It takes a long time for widespread recognition of problems to occur. There appears to be some association between CIRS and the carnivore diet. I predict we'll start to see all sorts of issues long term from the carnivore diet.
@tim-2 yes, and eggs have a good amount of folate and beans are excellent for folate and are in theory high in molybdenum depending on soil levels apparently. Beans also help the gut microbiome and Vitamin K. https://www.drfuhrman.com/blog/193/your-gut-microbiome-influences-immune-function-and-beans-keep-it-healthy#:~:text=Prebiotics%20nourish%20the%20microbiome%20and%20allow%20for%20production,and%20promote%20production%20of%20short%20chain%20fatty%20acids.
After eating as much beef primarily as I could for 2 years in my n=1 study I reckoned B1 and B5 were low so I increased some relevant foods and they seemed to help. Dr S scared some people out of eating the organ meats too which would have given more B2 eg beef hearts (1.21 mgs per 100 grams) and beef kidneys (2.97 mgs per 100 grams, 175% of RDA per Cronometer). B1 foods are pork, sunflower seeds, mushrooms, macadamia nuts and oats. B5 are chicken, mushrooms, avocadoes and eggs.
Quote from tim on March 4, 2023, 7:40 amHow long did it take for issues associated with vegetarian and vegan diets to be widely recognized? The macrobiotic diet? I'd say decades. Issues associated with the Weston Price diet and other high vitamin A diets haven't been recognized yet. It takes a long time for widespread recognition of problems to occur. There appears to be some association between CIRS and the carnivore diet. I predict we'll start to see all sorts of issues long term from the carnivore diet.
Pottenger put forward the idea (after much experimentation with cats) that it took 3 generations to figure out all the repercussions of a change in diet. And then it takes 3 generations to return to a healthy animal once a deficient diet is fixed.
We know that Hypervitaminosis A causes scurvy and we know that high dose vitamin C can ameliorate acute Hypervitaminosis A during viral infection. That explains why it's much safer for carnivores who produce large amounts of vitamin C endogenously to eat the liver of their prey. Humans on a meat only diet are eating meat that isn't freshly killed and they are cooking most of it so not only are they not producing vitamin C endogenously but they are eating a very low vitamin C diet. This will reduce liver detoxification, accelerate the development of atherosclerosis, promote aging and make them much more susceptible to Hypervitaminosis A. Perhaps when serum retinol is low vitamin C requirements are greatly reduced but we don't know the details so it's safer to ensure adequate vitamin C intake.
Yep and small amounts of cabbage is a probably a good idea for vitamin C, folate, potassium and vitamin K.
Kidneys are high in vitamin A though? They taste awful to me besides being a waste disposal organ like the liver. I always found heart quite chewy but happy to give it another go. I like lamb brains, beef tongue, bone marrow, pork brawn, fish heads, chicken gizzards and chicken feet and frames for stock.
Both pork and mushrooms are a regular part of my diet.
@tim-2 Beef kidneys are very high in choline relative to the Vitamin A. Risk/reward. Steak and kidney pie, anyone ? I enjoyed the lamb kidneys for a couple of weeks. Lucky to be able to eat the eggs. Yes, I always preferred lamb to beef hearts but the beef hearts much higher in choline. I found a haggis brand with lamb lobes. Beef tongue I think is a good choice for choline.
Pigs only have high amounts of thiamine because they are fed thiamine supplements. You could just take a thiamine supplement yourself, if you prefer.
Quote from Retinoicon on March 4, 2023, 2:17 pmPigs only have high amounts of thiamine because they are fed thiamine supplements. You could just take a thiamine supplement yourself, if you prefer.
Wrong. Pork naturally contains at least 4x the thiamin of beef.
Quote from tim on March 4, 2023, 5:21 pmWrong. Pork naturally contains at least 30x the thiamin of beef.
Perhaps the particlar wild boar that ended up in the USDA database ate a high-thiamin diet? Who knows?
For a more rigorous approach, in the 1940s scientists experimentally varied the thiamin content of the feed fed to pigs and found a high correlation between the feed and the thiamine content of the tissue. From the short article "Thiamin Content of Pork", which is summarizing another paper.
In general, the results indicate that when the thiamin intake was 2.6 times greater than that on the “lean thiamin” ration, the thiamin content of the pork tissues was approximately doubled. However, when the thiamin content of the ration was further increased, the thiamin content of pork was increased but slightly. This may be taken as an indication that the saturation point of these tissues had probably been reached.
This is discussed in the modern textbook "Swine Feeding and Nutrition" by Cunha.
A positive relationship exists between thiamin intake and the deposition of this vitamin in the tissues of swine. This makes it possible to increase the amount of thiamin in pork by using feeds high in this vitamin. Usually loin and ham have the highest thiamin content, followed by other cuts in the following order: shoulder, heart, liver, and kidney. A program of enriching pork by feeding diets high in this vitamin would increase the supply of thiamin in the American diet. This is important, because the average American diet is low in thiamin.
They're talking about a 2x increase. Many of the pork thiamin measurements in the USDA database are higher.
Pork, fresh, loin, top loin (roasts), boneless, separable lean and fat, cooked, roasted
This one lists 0.547 mg per 100g, about 8x higher than beef and almost twice as high as the wild pork.