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DiscussionLet's talk about it: The science of itCopper and CERULOPLASMIN

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Copper and CERULOPLASMIN

#51 · May 1, 2022, 5:21 pm

Jason Hommel just posted from his copper group on Facebook. It seems like Grant and Jason are in touch.

Does copper help vitamin A toxicity? We are exploring this question. Grant Genereaux does not seem to have explored this question. They know zinc helps make retinol binding protein, which helps. Too much copper can block zinc. But copper deficiency appears to mimic vit A toxicity, and copper seems to reverse all the problems of vit A toxicity.

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#52 · May 1, 2022, 6:09 pm

Quote from Retinoicon on May 1, 2022, 5:21 pm

Jason Hommel just posted from his copper group on Facebook. It seems like Grant and Jason are in touch.

Does copper help vitamin A toxicity? We are exploring this question. Grant Genereaux does not seem to have explored this question. They know zinc helps make retinol binding protein, which helps. Too much copper can block zinc. But copper deficiency appears to mimic vit A toxicity, and copper seems to reverse all the problems of vit A toxicity.

The question would be "does copper help alleviate vitamin A toxicity symptoms similar to the way vitamin C can blunt scurvy/vitamin A toxicity symptoms?"

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#53 · May 4, 2022, 2:51 am

Interesting discussion. Personally I wouldn't be surprised. But I'm just afraid to take such high doses of copper, as this may end in resuscitation. Also there are a number of studies that have explored that excess copper can indeed be toxic (for example, about link to EMF sensitivity was published somewhere here). I wonder if anyone has tried taking such high doses for over 1 year? And does it give stable effects, not just temporary ones?

I get mixed effects from normal doses.

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#54 · May 4, 2022, 4:24 am

Quote from Даниил on May 4, 2022, 2:51 am

I wonder if anyone has tried taking such high doses for over 1 year? And does it give stable effects, not just temporary ones?

I think Jason Hommel has been on high dose copper for multiple years.

#55 · May 4, 2022, 4:27 am

Quote from Armin on May 1, 2022, 6:09 pm

Quote from Retinoicon on May 1, 2022, 5:21 pm

But copper deficiency appears to mimic vit A toxicity, and copper seems to reverse all the problems of vit A toxicity.

This logic would somewhat imply that you could not get vA toxicity from eating liver, as liver is not only high in vA, but also in copper. I have not experienced this in my case; I think eating liver can cause both vA and copper toxicity.

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#56 · May 4, 2022, 4:55 am

Quote from Даниил on May 4, 2022, 4:55 am

Quote from Hermes on April 26, 2022, 1:09 pm

This is from the blurb on Amazon (I bolded some parts):

Copper is needed by every cell, every tissue, every organ in the human body. Most of the healing functions of what copper does can be directly traced to copper being essential to the functioning of copper-containing enzymes. Copper helping to build collagen alone makes copper a widely important function for nearly all body tissues; especially bone and muscles. Copper increases ATP for energy, which is essential for growth, recovery, healing, and feeling great. Copper is essential for nerve functioning, and especially brain functioning. We need copper for hormones and neurotransmitters. We need copper for better circulation, and the heart, lungs, liver, and every major organ, including the pancreas to prevent diabetes. We need copper for the immune system, and germ killing. Copper is non-toxic and safe at levels studied up to 20 mg/day, and likely safe at levels above that.

Copper deficiency causes a widely diverse array of problems, nearly all of which are the flip side of the copper-containing enzymes not functioning well. Athletes are especially prone to copper deficiency. A wide array of both nutrients and toxins block copper.

Iron is used in many packaged foods to "fortify" them, and iron blocks copper.

Fluoride blocks copper and most people have far more fluoride than copper in their bodies, 2600 mg fluoride compared to 72 mg copper, and it should be the other way around.

The government has conducted nearly fraudulent studies, and no further real studies, to establish both their RDA and UL for copper, and should be completely ignored until they conduct actual science and testing that can be repeated by others.

Nearly everything people die from is, at least in part, from copper deficiency.

Copper can cure the symptoms that lead people to take 49 out of the top 50 drugs, except the mineral potassium.

Copper Toxicity is a fraudulent and mistaken concept. Copper is toxic at 20,000 mg, not at 2 mg. There are no viable scientific mechanisms of action for a low level of copper toxicity.

Unless you eat a lot of liver, you need a copper supplement.

The best copper supplement is copper sulfate, and the price is so low, it's nearly free.

While many supplements block copper, the synergy is stronger and more important. Know the levels of the nutrients you need, and don't just take a multi-mineral that has all the minerals and vitamins way out of balance.

Taking very high levels of copper, 30-100 mg, can lead to a few mild nutritional deficiencies of Vitamin C, Zinc, Niacin, and perhaps molybdenum.

When taking copper, start slow, and scale-up, and do not neglect the other nutrients.

I think the very long list of positive things copper does for us, is also another refutation of copper toxicity.

I think the number of diseases, most of them major, associated with copper deficiency, is another strong refutation of copper toxicity.

It is not beyond the realm of possibility the declining culture and changes in societal values are a reflection of the worsening copper deficiency among the population.

After you read my book, you will be an expert on how copper heals.

As a copper-deficient population begins taking copper to get healthier than ever, this should start the copper revolution.

I know too little to argue his claims of copper toxicity being bogus on lower levels of supplementation. Anyway, he's not the first to point out the importance of copper, at least Jeff Bowls supplements with high copper too (he's the author of two books I know of. In one he propagates high melatonin supplementation, in the other he argues for larger dosages of vitamin D (up to 100'000 IU he claims to have tried himself).

So maybe there is something to be gained by people who struggle with the low-vA-diet alone and need some additional support for healing, and copper might be one of the missing pieces. Following the discussion above, I reduced beef heart consumption and stopped supplementation of copper all together. Instead of going lower, I would feel better going higher?

Offhand seems wrong(translate is used):

"Acute poisoning is described (Table 3) of eighteen workers living in Liverpool who drank tea prepared with drinking water containing 44 mg/dm3 of copper. Water was stored in a copper tub [19]. According to our calculations, a glass of such water contained 8.8 mg of copper - 0.14 mg/kg of body weight. Poisoning of people with drinking water was also observed, in which copper was contained in an amount of 7.6 mg/dm3 [20].

Cases of acute poisoning by foodstuffs treated with copper-containing pesticides have been reported. For example, Fazekas Gyula reports cases of poisoning children with grapes. Four children in a kindergarten ate 2 bunches of grapes treated with copper sulfate, one of them died. In another case, a 9-year-old boy died after eating 3 bunches of grapes sprayed with blue vitriol [23].

The smallest doses at which the phenomena of acute poisoning were noted immediately after the use of Cu ++ in water were tenths (0.1–0.2) - hundredths (0.07) of mg per kg of body weight per day, which corresponded to 10–12 and ~ 4.2–4.9 mg/person/day [22, 25].

Excess intake of copper in the body can cause chronic poisoning (Table 4).

A number of researchers have studied the chronic toxicity of copper administered to animals in the form of copper sulfate and Bordeaux mixture. There was a sharp inhibition of growth in rats, as well as a decrease in the amount of ascorbic acid (AA) in the liver, when 3.6 mg of copper (as sulfate) per day per animal (~ 18 μg/kg of body weight) was introduced into the diet [26]."

The literature describes chronic poisoning of people with copper (Table 5).

We observed cases of chronic family poisoning with copper, which entered the body for 1.5 years with tap water. Periodically, family members in the morning after drinking water, coffee or juices diluted with it had nausea, vomiting, and stomach pain. The concentration of copper in water was 7.8 mg/l. The daily intake (500 ml) contained 3.9 mg of copper. A person received copper in an amount equal to 0.056 mg/kg of body weight [31].

Particular attention should be paid to the severe course of poisoning with copper and its compounds in children of early age groups. Two infants of the same family received water containing copper in the amount of 2.2–3.4 mg/l for 9 months. They had a pronounced hepatosplenomegaly, an increase in the concentration of serum transaminases and bilirubin. Autopsy revealed focal liver necrosis [32]. Centrilobular hepatic necrosis has been observed in adults with copper ingestion of 5.7 mg/kg/day or more in the form of sulfate. Hepatotoxicity is a characteristic leading symptom that occurs consistently with copper exposure. Relatively recently in Germany, severe poisoning of children aged 8–13 months, fed with dry infant milk formulas, was recorded, for the restoration of which drinking water containing copper at a concentration of 15.5 mg / dm3 (MPC - 3 mg / dm3) was used. During the year, 13 children died from cirrhosis of the liver [33].

The death of a child at the age of 15 months, caused by copper, was reported in one of the reports of the WHO Expert Committee. As a result of the analysis of this case, it was assumed that the content of copper in water, which exceeds 80 μg per 100 ml, is dangerous if it is used for a long time [34]. A similar conclusion was made in [35], where it is noted that the copper concentration in water of about 0.8 mg/dm3 is dangerous for children."

Quote from Hermes on April 26, 2022, 1:09 pm

This is from the blurb on Amazon (I bolded some parts):

Copper is needed by every cell, every tissue, every organ in the human body. Most of the healing functions of what copper does can be directly traced to copper being essential to the functioning of copper-containing enzymes. Copper helping to build collagen alone makes copper a widely important function for nearly all body tissues; especially bone and muscles. Copper increases ATP for energy, which is essential for growth, recovery, healing, and feeling great. Copper is essential for nerve functioning, and especially brain functioning. We need copper for hormones and neurotransmitters. We need copper for better circulation, and the heart, lungs, liver, and every major organ, including the pancreas to prevent diabetes. We need copper for the immune system, and germ killing. Copper is non-toxic and safe at levels studied up to 20 mg/day, and likely safe at levels above that.

Copper deficiency causes a widely diverse array of problems, nearly all of which are the flip side of the copper-containing enzymes not functioning well. Athletes are especially prone to copper deficiency. A wide array of both nutrients and toxins block copper.

Iron is used in many packaged foods to "fortify" them, and iron blocks copper.

Fluoride blocks copper and most people have far more fluoride than copper in their bodies, 2600 mg fluoride compared to 72 mg copper, and it should be the other way around.

The government has conducted nearly fraudulent studies, and no further real studies, to establish both their RDA and UL for copper, and should be completely ignored until they conduct actual science and testing that can be repeated by others.

Nearly everything people die from is, at least in part, from copper deficiency.

Copper can cure the symptoms that lead people to take 49 out of the top 50 drugs, except the mineral potassium.

Copper Toxicity is a fraudulent and mistaken concept. Copper is toxic at 20,000 mg, not at 2 mg. There are no viable scientific mechanisms of action for a low level of copper toxicity.

Unless you eat a lot of liver, you need a copper supplement.

The best copper supplement is copper sulfate, and the price is so low, it's nearly free.

While many supplements block copper, the synergy is stronger and more important. Know the levels of the nutrients you need, and don't just take a multi-mineral that has all the minerals and vitamins way out of balance.

Taking very high levels of copper, 30-100 mg, can lead to a few mild nutritional deficiencies of Vitamin C, Zinc, Niacin, and perhaps molybdenum.

When taking copper, start slow, and scale-up, and do not neglect the other nutrients.

I think the very long list of positive things copper does for us, is also another refutation of copper toxicity.

I think the number of diseases, most of them major, associated with copper deficiency, is another strong refutation of copper toxicity.

It is not beyond the realm of possibility the declining culture and changes in societal values are a reflection of the worsening copper deficiency among the population.

After you read my book, you will be an expert on how copper heals.

As a copper-deficient population begins taking copper to get healthier than ever, this should start the copper revolution.

I know too little to argue his claims of copper toxicity being bogus on lower levels of supplementation. Anyway, he's not the first to point out the importance of copper, at least Jeff Bowls supplements with high copper too (he's the author of two books I know of. In one he propagates high melatonin supplementation, in the other he argues for larger dosages of vitamin D (up to 100'000 IU he claims to have tried himself).

So maybe there is something to be gained by people who struggle with the low-vA-diet alone and need some additional support for healing, and copper might be one of the missing pieces. Following the discussion above, I reduced beef heart consumption and stopped supplementation of copper all together. Instead of going lower, I would feel better going higher?

Offhand seems wrong(translate is used):

"Acute poisoning is described (Table 3) of eighteen workers living in Liverpool who drank tea prepared with drinking water containing 44 mg/dm3 of copper. Water was stored in a copper tub [19]. According to our calculations, a glass of such water contained 8.8 mg of copper - 0.14 mg/kg of body weight. Poisoning of people with drinking water was also observed, in which copper was contained in an amount of 7.6 mg/dm3 [20].

Cases of acute poisoning by foodstuffs treated with copper-containing pesticides have been reported. For example, Fazekas Gyula reports cases of poisoning children with grapes. Four children in a kindergarten ate 2 bunches of grapes treated with copper sulfate, one of them died. In another case, a 9-year-old boy died after eating 3 bunches of grapes sprayed with blue vitriol [23].

The smallest doses at which the phenomena of acute poisoning were noted immediately after the use of Cu ++ in water were tenths (0.1–0.2) - hundredths (0.07) of mg per kg of body weight per day, which corresponded to 10–12 and ~ 4.2–4.9 mg/person/day [22, 25].

Excess intake of copper in the body can cause chronic poisoning (Table 4).

A number of researchers have studied the chronic toxicity of copper administered to animals in the form of copper sulfate and Bordeaux mixture. There was a sharp inhibition of growth in rats, as well as a decrease in the amount of ascorbic acid (AA) in the liver, when 3.6 mg of copper (as sulfate) per day per animal (~ 18 μg/kg of body weight) was introduced into the diet [26]."

The literature describes chronic poisoning of people with copper (Table 5).

We observed cases of chronic family poisoning with copper, which entered the body for 1.5 years with tap water. Periodically, family members in the morning after drinking water, coffee or juices diluted with it had nausea, vomiting, and stomach pain. The concentration of copper in water was 7.8 mg/l. The daily intake (500 ml) contained 3.9 mg of copper. A person received copper in an amount equal to 0.056 mg/kg of body weight [31].

Particular attention should be paid to the severe course of poisoning with copper and its compounds in children of early age groups. Two infants of the same family received water containing copper in the amount of 2.2–3.4 mg/l for 9 months. They had a pronounced hepatosplenomegaly, an increase in the concentration of serum transaminases and bilirubin. Autopsy revealed focal liver necrosis [32]. Centrilobular hepatic necrosis has been observed in adults with copper ingestion of 5.7 mg/kg/day or more in the form of sulfate. Hepatotoxicity is a characteristic leading symptom that occurs consistently with copper exposure. Relatively recently in Germany, severe poisoning of children aged 8–13 months, fed with dry infant milk formulas, was recorded, for the restoration of which drinking water containing copper at a concentration of 15.5 mg / dm3 (MPC - 3 mg / dm3) was used. During the year, 13 children died from cirrhosis of the liver [33].

The death of a child at the age of 15 months, caused by copper, was reported in one of the reports of the WHO Expert Committee. As a result of the analysis of this case, it was assumed that the content of copper in water, which exceeds 80 μg per 100 ml, is dangerous if it is used for a long time [34]. A similar conclusion was made in [35], where it is noted that the copper concentration in water of about 0.8 mg/dm3 is dangerous for children."

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#57 · May 4, 2022, 7:24 am

Taube Becker (who posts some interesting stuff on Facebook) posted this paper on Cu poisoning.

’the ability to mobilise Cu, however, is not lost, which suggests that the excessive demands of Cu are met at the expense of failure in the production of RBP’

This suggested to me a possible mechanism as to how excess copper traps vA in the liver and relieves ‘vA in the blood’ symptoms. It’s not a copper ‘deficiency’ it’s a way of preventing vA getting out of the liver by stealing RBP. This reduces vA toxicity symptoms…until it can no longer stem the tide. Seems feasible to me.

Click to access copper-and-vitamin-a-concentrations-in-the-blood-of-normal-and-cu-poisoned-sheep.pdf

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#58 · May 4, 2022, 7:33 am

@jaj, Yeah, I posted the same paper on sheep above in this thread. The paper'ss speculative comments in the discussion section are receiving a lot of attention.

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#59 · May 4, 2022, 7:57 am

@jeremy sorry I hadn’t seen that. Yes purely speculative but just an interesting mechanism idea that fits with the results people are having on the copper revolution page. I’m sure it’s not copper deficiency if it’s requiring such large amounts! That makes no sense to me. The sentence that struck a chord with me was when Jason Hommel said (in an interview he posted) that vA toxicity symptoms are just the same as copper ‘deficiency’ symptoms. Hmmm 🤔 Just sharing some thoughts as to what is possibly going on. Just thoughts.

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#60 · May 5, 2022, 4:25 am

Quote from Jenny on May 4, 2022, 7:24 am

Taube Becker (who posts some interesting stuff on Facebook) posted this paper on Cu poisoning.

’the ability to mobilise Cu, however, is not lost, which suggests that the excessive demands of Cu are met at the expense of failure in the production of RBP’

This suggested to me a possible mechanism as to how excess copper traps vA in the liver and relieves ‘vA in the blood’ symptoms. It’s not a copper ‘deficiency’ it’s a way of preventing vA getting out of the liver by stealing RBP. This reduces vA toxicity symptoms…until it can no longer stem the tide. Seems feasible to me.

https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/F353B1071253EE9698EC5D34A4D5C0A4/S0007114572000066a.pdf/copper-and-vitamin-a-concentrations-in-the-blood-of-normal-and-cu-poisoned-sheep.pdf

@jaj your reasoning is brilliant! I hope this is actually the case --

Copper and CERULOPLASMIN

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