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Copper and zinc metabolism
@jiri Of course I agree with you. Ideally none should ever have taken any medicine nor any supplement nor anything "toxic" and everybody should closely observe his body reduce stress practice some form of activity and meditation etc. etc.
And of course everyone is completely unique and has different set of symptoms and nothing can be generalized (words are never sufficient to explain reality - even a simple "tree" cannot be described by words because that tree is 100% unique, changes at every millisecond (continuously) and is infinite by nature but at some point if we wish to share we need to "reduce" (it is always a reduction) the reality and generalize somehow. People need a start up to the point where they have sufficient knowledge to do the rest by themselves.
The real question is what is the source of all the problems? While that source may be unique to every individual I do think there are some general things to take into account. Poisoning with "A" and wrong breathing patterns are a very good start. Systemic protein metabolism failure is another one etc. So we still have to make sense of all that otherwise we can simply close this forum and say "everyone is different, nothing can be shares, go and look by yourself" - I don't practice this method even if I know that every single human being is different (this applies also with your own theory of copper toxicity, it may be that some are copper toxic while other have other type of toxicity such as zinc or manganese etc.). My idea is simply to find what the cause for "majority" is so it is a good start (once again, breathing and "A" posioning are quite global nowayday) then everyone should as soon as possible take care of his own health and continue the way for his own unique metabolism and biochemistry etc.
Again, I cannot explain what I really mean by words so please read "between" words - I think we all agree on much more than what appears throughout these forums that's why sometimes silence is the most potent because words always distort what is true.
So, if I rephrase, I would say: "Everyone is different and unique but some cause(s) is so prevalent that is should be the very start on the journey to health - then each should observe himself and adapt that start to whatever comes on his way". If I had today to tell the 3 most prevalent "causes" that I see, it would be wrong breathing patterns, "A" toxicity and lack of systemic proteins (leading to accumulation of metals in unusable forms and host of other problems such as hormonal disruptions etc.). This may be completely wrong but it is actually what I have seen the most often in the most people and which "works" when tackled.
@dino Well bad breathing is not helping anyone, but I don't think it is the main cause of most health issues people have today.
"The real question is what is the source of all the problems?"
That is wrong question and will not help any individual.. If you want to do some research what are the biggest causes of health issues in modern rich countries great. But like I said if you want help some individuals those things doesn't matter. If you want really the most basic causes of health issues you should start with life style and simply the way people live in USA,Europe etc.. It is unnatural life style for human body that changed so much the last 100-200 years that the human body can't adapt so fast. Everything from EMF, chemicals everywhere, artificial light, stressful work, lack of sunshine, moving your body outside in nature, loss of connection with other people(no more tribe life, everyone is alone) and I can go on and on and on before I start with details on things like diet... I also wanted to help everyone, but I realized really fast that most people are not willing to completely change their life. They are maybe ok with taking pills or some surgery, but when I tell them they need to change their life completely. They are not interested. Even if they are really sick.. It hurts when it is family member, friend etc.. But like I said if they don't want change. Nobody can do it for them..
According to the following paper:
https://naldc.nal.usda.gov/download/18633/PDF
.... copper deficiency could bring a lot of systemic inflammation:
Basically under certain contexts & low copper immune cells could start to emit a ton of pro inflammatory cytokines which should result in general feeling of fatigue, malaise, etc - anyone experienced these symptoms to be corrected with copper supplementation?
Also look up the spike of IL-10 a.k.a. anemia inducing cytokine:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12165551/
Anemia is frequently observed in patients suffering from chronic inflammatory disorders. Recent in vitro data suggest that Th2 cytokines, such as IL-10, could be involved in its pathogenesis.
Anyone with previous anemia has it corrected with copper or at least improved?
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Copper deficiency anemia: review article
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29959467/
Copper deficiency, a new triad: anemia, leucopenia, and myeloneuropathy
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5637704/
Her copper level was undetectable at <5 (reference range 70–125 µg/dL). She was given intravenous followed by oral copper supplementation. Within 4–6 weeks of copper replacement, her macrocytic anemia and leukopenia resolved but neurological manifestation persisted. Table 2 shows her laboratory values after copper supplementation. Her neurological symptoms started to alleviate in 5–6 months after copper supplementation but did not resolve completely. On subsequent outpatient visits over a year, her weight remained stable and she reported only mild generalized weakness.
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https://www.jstor.org/stable/1686432?seq=1
Mice fed a purified diet low in copper display anemia, hypoceruloplasminemia, depressed concentrations of liver copper, and elevated concentrations of liver iron. An impaired humoral-mediated immune response (decreased numbers of antibody-producing cells) is observed in mice with severe as well as marginal copper deficiency. The magnitude of this impairment is highly correlated with the degree of functional copper deficiency (hypoceruloplasminemia).
@rockarolla the problem is in most cases it is not about true copper deficiency from the diet, but low bioavailability due to low transport proteins.. You need to eat completely crazy diet and/or take crazy amounts of zinc/molybdenum etc.. to have real cooper deficiency.. So having enough copper from the diet is not a problem. We don't need more than 1-2mg a day which is very easy to get. The problem is to have adrenals and liver in good shape so you have good ceruloplasmin production and if you know more about this topic you know that ironically the more copper toxic you are the more copper deficiency symptoms you have, because that extremely toxic free copper can not run around in the body so it is just stored in the organs like liver and than brain where it does good amount of damage and because your liver is damaged and can't make systemic proteins like ceruloplasmin the body can't use that copper from that liver and use it for all kinds of functions so you end up with all kinds of copper deficiency symptoms... That's was/is my case.. Low ceruloplasmin, all kinds of deficiency symptoms. Some were really scary, but at the same time from time to time extremely high free copper in the blood(during copper dump)... Copper metabolism is complicated even for people that study this let alone for people even for doctors that have no idea about things like that...
Yeah copper, iron and manganese are abundant in the diet and tend to present more of a threat from toxicity than deficiency. Deficiency symptoms for iron and copper are more related to it being biounavailable in my opinion. Riboflavin deficiency and probably other nutrient deficiencies can cause iron and maybe also copper biounavailability, you can see simultaneous deficiency/toxicity symptoms.
@tim-2 not just riboflavin there is is many things that can create copper issues. I agree with iron. Not sure about manganese. With minerals it is hard to generalize. It is all about the environment, diet and life style of each individual.. Most people don't have mineral intake in balance and I think that is very important factor for good health.. To have all minerals in the body in balance, but most people are toxic in some and deficient in others simply because they eat some type of foods all the time, they live some type of life style in some type of environment all their life and if all those factors are not balanced that means there will be disbalance.. That's why I think doing hair tests with blood tests and learn what I need and what I need to reduce is very important. Unfortunately medical system is not interested in something like that. Nobody cares if you have cancer due to some toxicity and deficiency of some minerals. There are no money in telling someone eat this don't eat that and take this supplements.. Interestingly when we deal with plants and animals we know how minerals are important and because you can't give plants some drugs to patch the symptoms you need to deal with the cause of the problem.. But with people you can just drug them and make money from them. Really sad...
There was a small lake in Florida where alligators started becoming zombie like and having fits and then just rolling over in the water and dying eventually. The government sent in a group of scientists to find out what was CAUSING it. Top scientists from a range of fields spent years working to find out what was going on. They wondered if it was some toxin from the housing development that was happening around the lake but they couldn't identify any chemical that was causing it. They looked at every possible CAUSE that could do something like that. Eventually they realized what was happening. The housing development meant that there was a significant run off of fertilizer going into the lake. The fertilizer was causing algae to grow that shifted the balance of the species of fish in the lake. The alligators ate two main species. One of the species contains a lot of thiaminase in its flesh but because the other species doesn't the alligators got enough thiamin. When the species that contains a lot of thiaminase became the main fish in the lake the alligators started getting thiamin deficiency and started dying. When this was discovered strict regulations were introduced to reduce the amount of fertilizer going into the lake and this fixed the problem.
Seems a bit different from the way human health is studied.
The moral of the story being that more detective work is assigned to wild alligators than to people.
This is just my personal experience with zinc and copper. I noticed when I started loosing my sense of taste that if I didn't masturbate my sense of taste would come back and as it progressed my libido got so low that I never masturbated anymore. All this really points to zinc deficiency. Sometimes taking zinc seemed to help. I remember downing a couple of a zinc and my taste seemed to come back. But this seemed to help less and less the more I took it.
I am much worse now than I was a few years ago. If I take a zinc supplement all that happens is I have a metallic taste for up to a week afterwards.
I've tried copper a few times. I was very prepared for it to make everything worse. But in my food diary the day after taking a copper supplement I had written that I had high libido and that I was feeling pleasure in listening to music that I hadn't felt in a long long time. Another time I took it and my tinnitus just stopped. I've only tried a few times but each time was positive. Bare in my mind I NEVER have positive results from taking supplements. I feel worse if I take magnesium. I feel worse if I take calcium. I feel worse if I take too much vitamin d. I didn't keep taking them because I was worried about it.
Maybe the body can only use so much zinc. Maybe we need copper to use zinc. Also the tingling sensations I get do match up with copper deficiency.
I asked my mum to try a copper supplement to see how it made her feel. That night her irritable legs were the best they had been in years.
I feel like I have zinc deficiency symptoms, but taking a crap load of zinc does not help. After a certain amount it just makes it worse.