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Copper and zinc metabolism
Quote from rockarolla on March 2, 2021, 9:59 amQuote from Jiří on March 2, 2021, 9:33 amQuote from rockarolla on March 2, 2021, 9:06 amBlood PH is always tightly balanced.
Heh of course but that doesn't mean that your tissues are not out of balance.. It's like saying minerals in the blood are tightly balanced. That doesn't mean that your are not deficient or toxic in tissues.. By what is pH balanced? By acids and alkaline things like alkaline minerals, bicarbonate etc.. By oxygen vs CO2 etc.. So obviously if you run out of things that neutralize acids and balance pH you will run into a problems. pH of the urine is good measuring tool. Urine should have the lowest pH in the morning like 6.5 and the highest at night like 7. someting. Most people have much more acidic urine. It's hard on the kidneys. Plenty of people healed their kidneys with biking soda..
I'am not sure if baking soda is totally harmless
Once i saw the research that baking soda resulted in less creatinine but slightly more proteinuria on a course of like 6..12 months
After A-as-steroid withdrawal it is expected for the immune system to kick in for a period of months/years (-> more acidicity) until the chronic infections previously hidden/masked by A are totally resolved.
Doubt healthy person will suffer from acidicity on a meat+rice diet, heck he/she does not have much of it even on a meat alone...
@rockarolla nothing healthy about me unfortunately.. Yes baking soda can be dangerous like everything.. I will take small amounts for sodium instead of salt first thing in the morning in hot water and also before and/or after exercise. Athletes take baking soda before high intensity it helps with lactic acid build up..
Healing is so slow. 🙁
I think the main problem with A is that "lazy" immune system instead of doing the work by itself throws it over some sort of chronic infection(as a weapon - there is an old research classifying A as antibiotic), like for example gut candida, but A is such an old news for germs (resistance) so that instead of successful killing followed by withdrawal and healing immune system continues to throw it over the infection year by year -> more and more tissue damage, so called leaky gut and as an end result the inflammation from A-damaged tissues got combined with inflammation from infection toxins bringing even more symptoms.
Quote from rockarolla on March 2, 2021, 10:51 amHealing is so slow. 🙁
I think the main problem with A is that "lazy" immune system instead of doing the work by itself throws it over some sort of chronic infection(as a weapon - there is an old research classifying A as antibiotic), like for example gut candida, but A is such an old news for germs (resistance) so that instead of successful killing followed by withdrawal and healing immune system continues to throw it over the infection year by year -> more and more tissue damage, so called leaky gut and as an end result the inflammation from A-damaged tissues got combined with inflammation from infection toxins bringing even more symptoms.
Copper is also huge part in this. Every time you have infection or something the body increases ceruloplasmin so there is more bioavailable copper that can kill bugs.. But if the liver can't make ceruloplasmin for example if your adrenals and/or liver is in bad shape you have a problem.. Btw for my leaky gut was mercury from amalgams the cause for sure. I had no problems before amalgams. Healthy kid. Year or two after amalgams I started having crazy gut pains, diarrhea than really bad acne.. I couldn't tolerate gluten or caseine but it was still the bulk of my diet. So it fucked me up pretty badly.. Once I started eating bodybuilding diet with almsot no gluten. There was no acne or gut issues..
Copper could help a lot(together with zinc) and maybe selenium.
Copper deficiency puts immune system in panic mode(pro infl. cytokines spike, hypo, anemia -> poor immunity prone to candida and yeast). Macrophages(cells that kill any germs incl. candida) use copper(and zinc) to intoxicate any ingested pathogen. They actually have specific transportes on their surfaces for both zinc and copper (and glucose too, so its deficiency is detrimental(hello keto dieters)).
Copper and zinc(and glucose) deficiencies are very easy tracked: since immune cells are very greedy and obligatory glucose(and other nutrients) utilisers, for a copper/zinc deficient person supplementation will upregulate his/her metabolism(that is maximum amount of calories per day without weight gain).
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5490603/
Expression modulation of ZIPs and ZnTs during inflammatory processes has been documented. Intracellular zinc requirements are altered during an inflammatory event or when an invading pathogen gains access to the cell.
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Since zinc does not have major storage depot in the body, zinc deficiency is easily and rapidly produced.
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Recent findings have established that zinc metabolism and its role in immune function are directly linked to zinc transporter function. This is demonstrated by ZIP8 which functions as a critical negative feedback regulator. When inflammation starts, NF-κB directly activates the expression of ZIP8, which then localizes to the plasma membrane, thereby mediating Zn uptake.
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On an intracellular level, macrophages have evolved two opposing strategies to kill phagocytosed pathogens. Macrophages can deprive Histoplasma capsulatum of zinc by reducing the phagosome zinc content. On the other hand, they kill Mycobacterium tuberculosis by intoxicating it with excess amounts of zinc and copper.
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https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22305804/
In parallel, metal detoxification systems in bacteria have been recently characterized as crucial microbial virulence determinants. Here, we will focus on these exciting advancements implicating copper- and zinc-mediated microbial poisoning as a novel innate immune mechanism against microbial pathogens, shedding light on an emerging field in the metallobiology of host-pathogen interactions.
Copper deficiency, a new triad: anemia, leucopenia, and myeloneuropathy
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5637704/
Her copper level was undetectable at <5 (reference range 70–125 µg/dL). She was given intravenous followed by oral copper supplementation. Within 4–6 weeks of copper replacement, her macrocytic anemia and leukopenia resolved but neurological manifestation persisted. Table 2 shows her laboratory values after copper supplementation. Her neurological symptoms started to alleviate in 5–6 months after copper supplementation but did not resolve completely. On subsequent outpatient visits over a year, her weight remained stable and she reported only mild generalized weakness.
@rockarolla how is "Copper and zinc(and glucose) deficiencies are very easy tracked" ? I was doing hair tests, blood tests for years and I didn't know if I am dying from copper deficiency or deficiency symptoms due to toxicity(low ceruloplasmin)... I would say it's very hard to find out if the person is copper deficient or toxic. It's mind fuck like crazy because it's about ceruloplasmin not about copper.. Nobody has true deficiency from low copper diet. Copper is almost in every food and if you don't take high dose vit C or zinc or molybdenum or any kind of copper antagonists there is no way somebody can be deficient due to low copper in the diet. Unless he eats nothing but beef or some crazy diet like that.. When I try very hard lower my copper intake I still get RDA lol... I can talk about it all the time, but people still don't get it. It's not about copper it's about making this copper bioavailable by ceruloplasmin... I deal with this like 8 years now and I still have so many questions.. The only true way to find out copper status is liver biopsy. But good luck with that..
I don't remember the details at this point, but my zinc deficiency and copper overload (very pronounced at the time - 2015) was triangulated and figured out for Walsh protocol supplements using serum copper, ceruleplasmin, and plasma zinc (if I recall correctly - I think those were the types for the zinc and copper). For me, these particular diagnoses were spot on, although the Walsh protocol gets hazy as to Cause, and definitely doesn't address hypervitaminosis A, which I am nearly certain I was suffering from at the time and for many years prior. From what I've read, zinc deficiency nearly always goes hand in hand with copper toxicity, and supplementing it plus selenium and possibly some Bs is one of the best ways to bring the seesaw into balance again. the reverse is true - copper deficiency brings the seesaw down in the other direction.
I think that many fewer people (particularly women) suffer from copper deficiency than zinc deficiency, but I hear it is certainly equally debilitating. I have never been a suicidal person, but I wished for my life to be Done if I had to keep feeling the way I did with very low zinc levels! For several years I had no idea what else to try, and supplements were definitely a lifesaver until our Vitamin A detox. I am experimenting with very few alternating with no supps now, and hopeful that eventually I will be mostly not a supplement taker! 🙂
Quote from Jiří on June 11, 2021, 1:09 pm@rockarolla how is "Copper and zinc(and glucose) deficiencies are very easy tracked" ? I was doing hair tests, blood tests for years and I didn't know if I am dying from copper deficiency or deficiency symptoms due to toxicity(low ceruloplasmin)... I would say it's very hard to find out if the person is copper deficient or toxic. It's mind fuck like crazy because it's about ceruloplasmin not about copper.. Nobody has true deficiency from low copper diet. Copper is almost in every food and if you don't take high dose vit C or zinc or molybdenum or any kind of copper antagonists there is no way somebody can be deficient due to low copper in the diet. Unless he eats nothing but beef or some crazy diet like that.. When I try very hard lower my copper intake I still get RDA lol... I can talk about it all the time, but people still don't get it. It's not about copper it's about making this copper bioavailable by ceruloplasmin... I deal with this like 8 years now and I still have so many questions.. The only true way to find out copper status is liver biopsy. But good luck with that..
You can track any nutrition deficiency(and vice versa) including macros(glucose/fats/proteins) indirectly by observing increased metabolism(accelerated weight loss or stable weight despite increasing macros(i.e. "calories in")) upon corresponding supplementation. IMO Ray Peat is spot on when talking about normalized metabolism as a key of getting better, but ironically he chose the worst food sources for a sick(they are getting fat on his diet instead of getting better) person to increase it like orange juice(fructose), carrot salad(just lol) and dairy...
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https://www.drshillingford.com/blog/copper-may-help-weight-loss-6138.html
Researcher and faculty scientist, Chris Chang of UC Berkeley, said “We find that copper is essential for breaking down fat cells so that they can be used for energy.” He added, “It acts as a regulator. The more copper there is, the more the fat is broken down. We think it would be worthwhile to study whether a deficiency in this nutrient could be linked to obesity and obesity-related diseases.”
"You can track any nutrition deficiency(and vice versa) including macros(glucose/fats/proteins) indirectly by observing increased metabolism(accelerated weight loss or stable weight despite increasing macros(i.e. "calories in")) upon corresponding supplementation."
This just shows that you never have to deal with copper issues.. I was taking copper and feeling good. Increased metabolism, energy, heart rate, blood pressure. It's because it's strong neurostimulant. It pushes your adrenals to work hard. So you feel great on chocolate, nuts etc. but than you crash.. Because you depleted all your cofactors that are needed to make copper bioavailable.. I would say that's the case for like 70% of vegans. They go crazy from copper toxicity.. It really doesn't work like that with minerals that you take something you feel good on it so you are deficient and should take it.. People taking recommended mineral protocols after hair test feel completely horrible in most cases. Last thing what copper toxic person wants is low copper diet high in protein, zinc... It completely shuts down their body. They want keep eating copper rich foods and stimulate their body to death.. Btw that is also great example of how "the body knows what needs. So you should follow your cravings.." the body prioritizes acute issues. It doesn't see into the future what will happen.. Most people are like you even "experts" like Chris Masterjohn will say determine copper status is so easy. You just do serum copper tests because it's the best indicator. That can't be further from the truth from my experience. Had always low serum copper so I kept killing myself with high copper foods. Than I stopped high copper and started taking more copper antagonists and do things that support liver/adrenals and my serum copper skyrocket.. So what now? Deficient for years ups I overspiled now I am toxic? Heh no the body just finally dumped some copper form overloaded liver..
What copper antagonists and liver/adrenal support would you recommend for copper toxicity?
From what I've seen, supplementing with molybdenum and eating whole food Vitamin C is good to do, in addition to getting a higher zinc:copper ratio?
Did eating copper make you feel kind of jittery/shaky when you were toxic with it? I recently tried supplementing with a tiny amount (0.25mg of copper glycinate) and I felt pretty strange several hours afterward. The copper seemed like the only thing that would explain the sensation.
If you suspect a chronic copper deficiency despite supplementation that could mean a high level of chronic inflammation is running in your body(endotoxin related?)
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27378943/
https://link.springer.com/article/10.2478/s11756-007-0061-0
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/imcb.12427