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Eggs as part of Vitamin A reduction
Quote from wavygravygadzooks on December 16, 2022, 1:00 pmRegarding detoxification without fiber...aside from the rapidly growing number of people living happily on a modern version of carnivore, most of whom have fixed some pre-existing health condition that seems to stem from plant consumption, consider the case of the Inuit...if you needed fiber to detox Vitamin A or anything else, then these groups should have gone extinct long ago, particularly if they were eating liver consistently (and some individuals do). Evidence from other extant indigenous groups who consume liver with extremely low rates of plant consumption suggest the same thing.
I really don't understand why anybody keeps asking this question. However, it is still worth considering whether fiber consumption speeds or impedes detox, but you don't need fiber for anything (barring rare circumstances of course).
I've experimented many times with fiber and binders on my low vA diet. I haven't come to any certain conclusions except that I seem to have made plenty of progress during the extended periods without any fiber. On the pro-fiber side, I think it's possible it helps prevent dysbiosis that might occur from an excess of glucuronidated compounds that serve as an easily consumed sugar source by certain bacteria...I've had tons of gas on a carnivore diet despite seeming to digest meat just fine, which I can only really chalk up to bacteria feeding on glucuronidated compounds in the colon. On the downside, fiber and binders of any kind seem to slow the movement of things through the colon and worsen my GI symptoms. However, I have not tried an ultra-low-fat diet high in fiber, and I do wonder if that would be enough to shift my gut biome out of the rut it seems to be in. I may try that at some point out of curiosity, although I don't think maintaining such a diet for any length of time is a good idea, and if it takes years to deplete excess vA stores I would not want to rely on such a diet to do it.
In your fiber experiments, what is the highest daily dose you took? People have been getting amazing results at 100 grams (and more) per day. At those levels, things can't really slow down; there is a continual "push" to get two or three excellent bowel movements per day. The West Africans who are almost immune to colon cancer and obesity, and who get lots of beta carotene from the palm oil and corn bread they eat, also eat 200 grams per day of dietary fiber from their corn bread.
When I say dietary fiber, I am including the resistant starches; everything that makes it to the large intestine for digestion. The corn bread in west Africa is cooked and cooled for a few days, which turns the quick starches into slow starches, digested in the large intestine.
It is possible the west Africans are mainly eating white corn rather than yellow corn; have not been able to verify this yet.
The idea that "things can't really slow down" with high levels of fiber consumption is absolutely idiotic. What do you have to say to all the people who have had constipation and intestinal blockages due to fiber? And all the people whose GI symptoms resolved with the removal of fiber? What do you have to say to people like me who have motility problems in the colon? Even on carnivore, I've sometimes accumulated large amounts of stool in the colon in only 2-3 days of not passing bowel movements due to motility problems, and that can become very uncomfortable until I manage to flush it out with a bunch of oral magnesium. Fiber instantly compounds those problems for me. When my bowels are not seizing up, fiber is not an issue, but when they are seizing up, fiber is the worst possible thing you could add to the mix.
I am not saying that fiber doesn't improve some people's bowel motions...it clearly does. But if you compared carnivore with high fiber approaches, carnivore wins hands down for GI tract relief, and in due time I'm confident carnivore approaches will show lower levels of colon cancer and other intestinal diseases once the studies have been conducted.
Since I've gone mostly carnivore and low Vitamin A, I doubt I've gotten above 5 grams of fiber per day (tried both soluble and insoluble forms). However, I was on a high fiber diet prior that, eating tons of leafy greens and tubers, and that's when I got really sick. Indigenous people don't eat a million different plants when they do eat plants, they typically eat very few sources that they've identified as not-toxic-enough-to-kill-you.
F*$% fiber!
Quote from wavygravygadzooks on December 21, 2022, 12:47 pmThe idea that "things can't really slow down" with high levels of fiber consumption is absolutely idiotic. What do you have to say to all the people who have had constipation and intestinal blockages due to fiber? And all the people whose GI symptoms resolved with the removal of fiber? What do you have to say to people like me who have motility problems in the colon? Even on carnivore, I've sometimes accumulated large amounts of stool in the colon in only 2-3 days of not passing bowel movements due to motility problems, and that can become very uncomfortable until I manage to flush it out with a bunch of oral magnesium. Fiber instantly compounds those problems for me. When my bowels are not seizing up, fiber is not an issue, but when they are seizing up, fiber is the worst possible thing you could add to the mix.
I am not saying that fiber doesn't improve some people's bowel motions...it clearly does. But if you compared carnivore with high fiber approaches, carnivore wins hands down for GI tract relief, and in due time I'm confident carnivore approaches will show lower levels of colon cancer and other intestinal diseases once the studies have been conducted.
Since I've gone mostly carnivore and low Vitamin A, I doubt I've gotten above 5 grams of fiber per day (tried both soluble and insoluble forms). However, I was on a high fiber diet prior that, eating tons of leafy greens and tubers, and that's when I got really sick. Indigenous people don't eat a million different plants when they do eat plants, they typically eat very few sources that they've identified as not-toxic-enough-to-kill-you.
F*$% fiber!
If "tons of leafy greens and tubers" was your source of fiber, then you weren't even getting the recommended daily minimum of 35 grams of fiber. I was talking of 100 grams and more. Try it sometime. 🙂 Its pure mechanics. Your body can't help but keep moving it along.
Here's a simple experiment. Try crimping a rubber hose with a steel clip and then run water at increasing pressure through it. Guess what happens...no water gets through it until the hose simply bursts. Does that sound like something you want to have happen to your intestines?
It's not a perfect analogy, because your body can't generate that kind of pressure like a water pump, but that is also precisely why adding fiber usually doesn't help a truly constipated person - you don't accumulate pressure to move the fiber through. The pressure that moves fiber through your GI tract comes from propulsive waves in the intestines themselves, which cannot "accumulate". It's the lack of propulsive waves that causes constipation in the first place, and pouring a bunch of fiber down your throat just leads to more shit piling up without additional pressure to move it through. The only time more fiber helps create more pressure is when someone's colon is so enlarged from constantly being full of fiber that it can no longer contract enough around smaller bodies of waste to move them through...this is precisely what is discussed in Fiber Menace where eating a bunch of fiber often makes a person more dependent on fiber because the colon adjusts to the absurd amount of bulk its constantly subjected to and anything less than that huge bulk temporarily leads to a lack of propulsion until the colon eventually adjusts to the smaller amount of waste.
You are right that it is pure mechanics...it's just that your understanding of mechanics is completely wrong.
The recommended minimum daily intake of fiber is obviously retarded (you don't need any fiber at all). Have fun clogging your toilet...
Quote from wavygravygadzooks on December 21, 2022, 1:50 pmHere's a simple experiment. Try crimping a rubber hose with a steel clip and then run water at increasing pressure through it. Guess what happens...no water gets through it until the hose simply bursts. Does that sound like something you want to have happen to your intestines?
It's not a perfect analogy, because your body can't generate that kind of pressure like a water pump, but that is also precisely why adding fiber usually doesn't help a truly constipated person - you don't accumulate pressure to move the fiber through. The pressure that moves fiber through your GI tract comes from propulsive waves in the intestines themselves, which cannot "accumulate". It's the lack of propulsive waves that causes constipation in the first place, and pouring a bunch of fiber down your throat just leads to more shit piling up without additional pressure to move it through. The only time more fiber helps create more pressure is when someone's colon is so enlarged from constantly being full of fiber that it can no longer contract enough around smaller bodies of waste to move them through...this is precisely what is discussed in Fiber Menace where eating a bunch of fiber often makes a person more dependent on fiber because the colon adjusts to the absurd amount of bulk its constantly subjected to and anything less than that huge bulk temporarily leads to a lack of propulsion until the colon eventually adjusts to the smaller amount of waste.
You are right that it is pure mechanics...it's just that your understanding of mechanics is completely wrong.
The recommended minimum daily intake of fiber is obviously retarded (you don't need any fiber at all). Have fun clogging your toilet...
Your "thought experiment" has flaws, which if you'd do the real world experiments I and others have, you can see for yourself. Eating fiber does not "crimp" your intestines. Nor does it have the problem of creating a dependency the way magnesium does. Fiber acts as a lubricant, as well as a soft internal bandage that helps with leaky gut. If you are constipated, the fiber/lubricant will help unclog it, and in the amounts recommended, it will also give an extra "push" to uncork the bottle, so to speak. Sheer volume. Fiber absorbs water and expands.
The hormonal changes I experienced due to high fiber intake were very positive. Your gut bacteria do good things not only for your body, but for your brain. When you feed them, you'll find out what you've been missing. Give it a good two month run.
I didn't say fiber crimps your intestines.
Lucky for you, you don't appear to have dysmotility, which is why fiber doesn't seem to cause you problems. Ever heard of something called IBS? A syndrome of dysmotility? Or ileus (AKA intestinal pseudoobstruction)? Yeah, it's THAT which effectively "crimps" the intestines, the muscular dysfunction. Obviously it's not the same as a mechanical crimp, but intestinal paralysis is close enough.
Fiber, a lubricant, a soft internal bandage, helps leaky gut? LOL! Even many of the proponents of fiber will tell you it's the abrasive action that causes irritation to the gut lining that contributes to speeding up motility (when that actually happens). The interaction between fiber and gut bacteria and the human system is poorly understand, you just bought the Ansel Keyes message hook, line, and sinker. Sometimes the human body benefits, sometimes it doesn't.
Look, I've had IBS for over 15 years. I've tried all kinds of dietary approaches, including a diet high in various types of plant fiber. I've acknowledged that some people see benefits from adding fiber (probably only the people who have shit Standard American diets), but from everything I've heard and from my own experience, and from an evolutionary and physiological perspective (I'm a biologist), the removal of fiber and plants in general is far more likely to resolve GI problems than the addition of fiber.
The human digestive system is not one of an herbivore, there's absolutely no arguing with that point. You can't live on fiber like an herbivore, there's no arguing that point. But you can thrive on meat alone, there's no arguing that point. The only logical conclusion to be drawn from comparative anatomy is that the human digestive system is designed for meat, not fiber.
Quote from wavygravygadzooks on December 21, 2022, 2:42 pmI didn't say fiber crimps your intestines.
Lucky for you, you don't appear to have dysmotility, which is why fiber doesn't seem to cause you problems. Ever heard of something called IBS? A syndrome of dysmotility? Or ileus (AKA intestinal pseudoobstruction)? Yeah, it's THAT which effectively "crimps" the intestines, the muscular dysfunction. Obviously it's not the same as a mechanical crimp, but intestinal paralysis is close enough.
Fiber, a lubricant, a soft internal bandage, helps leaky gut? LOL! Even many of the proponents of fiber will tell you it's the abrasive action that causes irritation to the gut lining that contributes to speeding up motility (when that actually happens). The interaction between fiber and gut bacteria and the human system is poorly understand, you just bought the Ansel Keyes message hook, line, and sinker. Sometimes the human body benefits, sometimes it doesn't.
Look, I've had IBS for over 15 years. I've tried all kinds of dietary approaches, including a diet high in various types of plant fiber. I've acknowledged that some people see benefits from adding fiber (probably only the people who have shit Standard American diets), but from everything I've heard and from my own experience, and from an evolutionary and physiological perspective (I'm a biologist), the removal of fiber and plants in general is far more likely to resolve GI problems than the addition of fiber.
The human digestive system is not one of an herbivore, there's absolutely no arguing with that point. You can't live on fiber like an herbivore, there's no arguing that point. But you can thrive on meat alone, there's no arguing that point. The only logical conclusion to be drawn from comparative anatomy is that the human digestive system is designed for meat, not fiber.
Fiber does not "scour" your insides. Green leafy vegetables full of vitamin A will have a scouring-seeming effect, but that is because the vitamin A destroys the lining of the intestine. Inuit are starch adapted, they ate meat by necessity, but starchy foods whenever possible. Just as there are no vegan societies, there are no meat-only societies. It doesn't work, it isn't how humans are built. The Inuit didn't eat liver to eat vitamin A, they ate it raw and fresh within a certain time window because the glycogen stores were effectively carbs, easy to digest. Think about that, carbs were so important that they risked vitamin A to get to them. There are times of year, even in the arctic, when plants grow, and the Inuit made use of them for food.
https://www.freetheanimal.com/2014/03/disrupting-carbs-prebiotics.html
Fiber is not necessary good for everyone. For people that has gut motility issues and bacterial overgrowth specially in the small intestine then fiber is deadly, my constipation and brain fog was at the worse when I was eating lots of beans and fiber, the healthier I ate the worse that it got, I used to think this was mostly due to oxalates but I now I think this was all related to the fiber and sibo.