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Eggs as part of Vitamin A reduction
PreviousPage 47 of 76Next Quote from
Aleksey on May 4, 2023, 7:11 pm
Quote from
Chris on May 4, 2023, 5:40 pm
I happen to catch Dr. Smith's latest podcast on youtube today and he went off on eggs and choline again. It's hard to know who to trust here honestly. He said that basically if you have choline deficiency it's not that you're not eating enough, it's that your body is making enough choline because of (likely) folate deficiency. He said that eating too much choline from eggs will have long-term negative effects on the body and used his favorite phrase, 'it won't end well'.
I still listen to his livestreams and I did notice a slight shift in this one. He no longer railed on choline as being the worst thing for your liver. He even implicitly acknowledged that it has a role in normal human physiology by saying that those deficient in it are not producing enough in their bodies. He did fail to make a distinction between how different people might naturally have different capacities for creating choline due to sex or genetics, and he didn't acknowledge that meat also has choline.
Quote from
Chris on May 4, 2023, 5:40 pm
I happen to catch Dr. Smith's latest podcast on youtube today and he went off on eggs and choline again. It's hard to know who to trust here honestly. He said that basically if you have choline deficiency it's not that you're not eating enough, it's that your body is making enough choline because of (likely) folate deficiency. He said that eating too much choline from eggs will have long-term negative effects on the body and used his favorite phrase, 'it won't end well'.
I still listen to his livestreams and I did notice a slight shift in this one. He no longer railed on choline as being the worst thing for your liver. He even implicitly acknowledged that it has a role in normal human physiology by saying that those deficient in it are not producing enough in their bodies. He did fail to make a distinction between how different people might naturally have different capacities for creating choline due to sex or genetics, and he didn't acknowledge that meat also has choline.
puddleduck, PJ and 2 other users have reacted to this post.
puddleduckPJDeleted userAndrew B
Quote from
Aleksey on May 4, 2023, 7:14 pm
I had one egg yesterday and I tried to do that today as well, but I got a bit constipated last night and then I got constipated this afternoon as well, so I ate another egg. It does seem that eggs do help me with constipation. If I'm having trouble with eggs though, I wonder if I should supplement phosphatidylcholine and lower my egg consumption until I can handle them better. I know eggs have other good and bad things in them and I might miss out on some of the good things, but I also need to figure out how to neutralize the bad while benefiting from the good. At least that's my thought process on this so far.
I had one egg yesterday and I tried to do that today as well, but I got a bit constipated last night and then I got constipated this afternoon as well, so I ate another egg. It does seem that eggs do help me with constipation. If I'm having trouble with eggs though, I wonder if I should supplement phosphatidylcholine and lower my egg consumption until I can handle them better. I know eggs have other good and bad things in them and I might miss out on some of the good things, but I also need to figure out how to neutralize the bad while benefiting from the good. At least that's my thought process on this so far.
puddleduck, Audrey and 2 other users have reacted to this post.
puddleduckAudreyHermesAndrew B
Quote from
PJ on May 4, 2023, 9:25 pm
Totally missed this feature...
Totally missed this feature...
puddleduck, Audrey and 3 other users have reacted to this post.
puddleduckAudreyHermesDeleted userAndrew B
Quote from
PJ on May 4, 2023, 9:51 pm
Quote from
Chris on May 4, 2023, 5:40 pm
I happen to catch Dr. Smith's latest podcast on youtube today and he went off on eggs and choline again. It's hard to know who to trust here honestly. He said that basically if you have choline deficiency it's not that you're not eating enough, it's that your body is making enough choline because of (likely) folate deficiency. He said that eating too much choline from eggs will have long-term negative effects on the body and used his favorite phrase, 'it won't end well'.
The folate angle did help me to understand why vegans can get away without choline.
What I can't understand, if B vitamins are antidotes per Smith, then why shouldn't we strive to get the choline and save ourselves from having to manufacture it?
He made the claim that we can only get folate from diet, which I think is not correct.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3257725/#:~:text=The%20microbiota%20of%20the%20human,%2C%20and%20cobalamin%20%5B11%5D.
Quote from
Chris on May 4, 2023, 5:40 pm
I happen to catch Dr. Smith's latest podcast on youtube today and he went off on eggs and choline again. It's hard to know who to trust here honestly. He said that basically if you have choline deficiency it's not that you're not eating enough, it's that your body is making enough choline because of (likely) folate deficiency. He said that eating too much choline from eggs will have long-term negative effects on the body and used his favorite phrase, 'it won't end well'.
The folate angle did help me to understand why vegans can get away without choline.
What I can't understand, if B vitamins are antidotes per Smith, then why shouldn't we strive to get the choline and save ourselves from having to manufacture it?
He made the claim that we can only get folate from diet, which I think is not correct.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3257725/#:~:text=The%20microbiota%20of%20the%20human,%2C%20and%20cobalamin%20%5B11%5D.
puddleduck and Andrew B have reacted to this post.
Quote from
Inger on May 5, 2023, 12:21 am
Quote from
Tobias on May 4, 2023, 4:24 pm
@christian The implications are that the eyes are the preferred method of eliminating photosensitizing phytotoxins, which they can only do in a limited capacity.
@tobias,
so how can we maximize the eyes capacity of eliminating these photosensitizing phytotoxins?
Could it be that screen time / artificial light / absence of sunlight is what makes all the difference?
So the best healing tool would be to let our eyes face natural light with no lenses or glass in between?
I would love if the answer would be this easy......
Quote from
Tobias on May 4, 2023, 4:24 pm
@christian The implications are that the eyes are the preferred method of eliminating photosensitizing phytotoxins, which they can only do in a limited capacity.
@tobias,
so how can we maximize the eyes capacity of eliminating these photosensitizing phytotoxins?
Could it be that screen time / artificial light / absence of sunlight is what makes all the difference?
So the best healing tool would be to let our eyes face natural light with no lenses or glass in between?
I would love if the answer would be this easy......
puddleduck, Ourania and Hermes have reacted to this post.
Quote from
Inger on May 5, 2023, 12:27 am
Quote from
Aleksey on May 4, 2023, 7:14 pm
I had one egg yesterday and I tried to do that today as well, but I got a bit constipated last night and then I got constipated this afternoon as well, so I ate another egg. It does seem that eggs do help me with constipation. If I'm having trouble with eggs though, I wonder if I should supplement phosphatidylcholine and lower my egg consumption until I can handle them better. I know eggs have other good and bad things in them and I might miss out on some of the good things, but I also need to figure out how to neutralize the bad while benefiting from the good. At least that's my thought process on this so far.
@aleksey, have you tried eating only the yolks? Maybe you are allergic to the whites? I know many people are. Supposedly it is because they have used eggwhites in vaccines that we got as kids.
Quote from
Aleksey on May 4, 2023, 7:14 pm
I had one egg yesterday and I tried to do that today as well, but I got a bit constipated last night and then I got constipated this afternoon as well, so I ate another egg. It does seem that eggs do help me with constipation. If I'm having trouble with eggs though, I wonder if I should supplement phosphatidylcholine and lower my egg consumption until I can handle them better. I know eggs have other good and bad things in them and I might miss out on some of the good things, but I also need to figure out how to neutralize the bad while benefiting from the good. At least that's my thought process on this so far.
@aleksey, have you tried eating only the yolks? Maybe you are allergic to the whites? I know many people are. Supposedly it is because they have used eggwhites in vaccines that we got as kids.
puddleduck, Hermes and Deleted user have reacted to this post.
puddleduckHermesDeleted user
Quote from
salt on May 5, 2023, 12:54 am
Quote from
Aleksey on May 4, 2023, 7:14 pm
I had one egg yesterday and I tried to do that today as well, but I got a bit constipated last night and then I got constipated this afternoon as well, so I ate another egg. It does seem that eggs do help me with constipation. If I'm having trouble with eggs though, I wonder if I should supplement phosphatidylcholine and lower my egg consumption until I can handle them better. I know eggs have other good and bad things in them and I might miss out on some of the good things, but I also need to figure out how to neutralize the bad while benefiting from the good. At least that's my thought process on this so far.
What does the rest of your diet look like? If it's low fat it could be that you're basically "fat deficient" and that the fat from the egg is helping you with constipation. Have you tried increasing your fat intake by other means? And I'm definitely not recommending "EFAs", something like coconut oil would be a much healthier choice.
Quote from
Aleksey on May 4, 2023, 7:14 pm
I had one egg yesterday and I tried to do that today as well, but I got a bit constipated last night and then I got constipated this afternoon as well, so I ate another egg. It does seem that eggs do help me with constipation. If I'm having trouble with eggs though, I wonder if I should supplement phosphatidylcholine and lower my egg consumption until I can handle them better. I know eggs have other good and bad things in them and I might miss out on some of the good things, but I also need to figure out how to neutralize the bad while benefiting from the good. At least that's my thought process on this so far.
What does the rest of your diet look like? If it's low fat it could be that you're basically "fat deficient" and that the fat from the egg is helping you with constipation. Have you tried increasing your fat intake by other means? And I'm definitely not recommending "EFAs", something like coconut oil would be a much healthier choice.
puddleduck and Hermes have reacted to this post.
Quote from
Tommy on May 5, 2023, 1:23 am
@salt
I still don’t see why you take issue with PUFAs. The studies posted by the others were pretty interesting.
I don’t see how it could be unhealthy to eat nuts.
And yes I have read the ray peat articles.
@salt
I still don’t see why you take issue with PUFAs. The studies posted by the others were pretty interesting.
I don’t see how it could be unhealthy to eat nuts.
And yes I have read the ray peat articles.
puddleduck has reacted to this post.
Quote from
salt on May 5, 2023, 3:46 am
Quote from
Tommy on May 5, 2023, 1:23 am
@salt
I still don’t see why you take issue with PUFAs. The studies posted by the others were pretty interesting.
I don’t see how it could be unhealthy to eat nuts.
And yes I have read the ray peat articles.
It's a pretty complicated subject. Your reservation in regards to the nuts sounds ideological rather than based on anything meaningful. Also there is the macadamia nut, which has an extremely low EFA content, almost the same as coconut (which is a fruit). My stance is first and foremost based on my own personal experimentation with what I eat but I think the scientific research is congruent with it. I started writing a long reply about PUFA in the other thread but ironing out the intricacies of this subject in a clear way is quite burdensome, especially when going through study after study and explaining what's incorrect, and why. I might finish it later, or maybe I wont. But some basic points are that the original studies "proving" the essentiality of the EFAs are about as well constructed as the studies "proving" the essentiality of VA, and that in just about every well-constructed study that includes an EFAD (D for deficient) control group, this control group has the best outcomes. The studies showing the "great effects" of EFAs don't have such a control group, they just have groups eating various amounts of various EFAs; the authors conclude that because people who ate more EFA A than EFA B had better results, we all require EFA A to be healthy. Oh and also that we need EFA B (in smaller amounts) for whatever reason.
Quote from
Tommy on May 5, 2023, 1:23 am
@salt
I still don’t see why you take issue with PUFAs. The studies posted by the others were pretty interesting.
I don’t see how it could be unhealthy to eat nuts.
And yes I have read the ray peat articles.
It's a pretty complicated subject. Your reservation in regards to the nuts sounds ideological rather than based on anything meaningful. Also there is the macadamia nut, which has an extremely low EFA content, almost the same as coconut (which is a fruit). My stance is first and foremost based on my own personal experimentation with what I eat but I think the scientific research is congruent with it. I started writing a long reply about PUFA in the other thread but ironing out the intricacies of this subject in a clear way is quite burdensome, especially when going through study after study and explaining what's incorrect, and why. I might finish it later, or maybe I wont. But some basic points are that the original studies "proving" the essentiality of the EFAs are about as well constructed as the studies "proving" the essentiality of VA, and that in just about every well-constructed study that includes an EFAD (D for deficient) control group, this control group has the best outcomes. The studies showing the "great effects" of EFAs don't have such a control group, they just have groups eating various amounts of various EFAs; the authors conclude that because people who ate more EFA A than EFA B had better results, we all require EFA A to be healthy. Oh and also that we need EFA B (in smaller amounts) for whatever reason.
puddleduck, Hermes and PJ have reacted to this post.
Quote from
Andrew B on May 5, 2023, 5:06 am
Quote from
Aleksey on May 4, 2023, 2:20 pm
@andrew-b Thanks for those tips. How do you think I could tell the difference between too strong of detox vs. accumulating more vA vs. other potential issues on the vA detox journey? I'm not completely sure which is happening when. I know when I have strong detox symptoms and I get nauseous and poop a lot and then feel better, but at other times, things might be more subtle and hard to tell the difference. It seems that most recently I've had a mixture of symptoms which could be interpreted in different ways. From the ones I mentioned earlier, the feeling better after pooping seems to point to increased detox, but the slow build to more depression/anxiety, less libido, poorer quality sleep, hot flashes or just feeling stressed, etc. could point to increased toxicity. Other things like less swelling seems like it could be due to either having less toxins total or could be due to the toxins being stored in the liver and therefore less in the other tissues. I had a similar downward trend last year before I discovered vA toxicity theory, but it was much more intense and came with a lot more liver pain. So far it hasn't repeated the same this year, but I want to figure out what's going on so I could tweak my approach and get things going better before it gets anywhere near as bad as last year.
If the eggs are helping you with constipation it's a good indication you were lacking in choline to make the phosphatidylcholine that goes in bile. The eggs do lead to a stronger detox. I have heard at least 20 similar opinions on that. Dr Smith also made pooping his most important objective because that was the main way to remove the Vitamin A. Somebody pooping twice a day is going to be removing more Vitamin A would be his theory. If you can cope with side effects with the stronger detox I would keep with 2 eggs. If too strong then go back to 1 egg and/or use more betaine foods to prevent the conversion of choline to betaine.
To head off other problems with detox then variety of diet tends to help like pork, beans, oats, macadamias for B1 and chicken, avocados and mushrooms for B5. Consider the other things I mentioned that have helped other people slow it down.
Quote from
Aleksey on May 4, 2023, 2:20 pm
@andrew-b Thanks for those tips. How do you think I could tell the difference between too strong of detox vs. accumulating more vA vs. other potential issues on the vA detox journey? I'm not completely sure which is happening when. I know when I have strong detox symptoms and I get nauseous and poop a lot and then feel better, but at other times, things might be more subtle and hard to tell the difference. It seems that most recently I've had a mixture of symptoms which could be interpreted in different ways. From the ones I mentioned earlier, the feeling better after pooping seems to point to increased detox, but the slow build to more depression/anxiety, less libido, poorer quality sleep, hot flashes or just feeling stressed, etc. could point to increased toxicity. Other things like less swelling seems like it could be due to either having less toxins total or could be due to the toxins being stored in the liver and therefore less in the other tissues. I had a similar downward trend last year before I discovered vA toxicity theory, but it was much more intense and came with a lot more liver pain. So far it hasn't repeated the same this year, but I want to figure out what's going on so I could tweak my approach and get things going better before it gets anywhere near as bad as last year.
If the eggs are helping you with constipation it's a good indication you were lacking in choline to make the phosphatidylcholine that goes in bile. The eggs do lead to a stronger detox. I have heard at least 20 similar opinions on that. Dr Smith also made pooping his most important objective because that was the main way to remove the Vitamin A. Somebody pooping twice a day is going to be removing more Vitamin A would be his theory. If you can cope with side effects with the stronger detox I would keep with 2 eggs. If too strong then go back to 1 egg and/or use more betaine foods to prevent the conversion of choline to betaine.
To head off other problems with detox then variety of diet tends to help like pork, beans, oats, macadamias for B1 and chicken, avocados and mushrooms for B5. Consider the other things I mentioned that have helped other people slow it down.
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JennyAudreyHermesDeleted userAlekseyFabio
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