Quote from salt on February 3, 2023, 5:34 am

Quote from Jenny on February 3, 2023, 4:24 am

Another point which I’ve thought of is that covid may increase choline requirements. I had the first nasty strain in Jan 2020 and my choline deficiency markers (ALT, triglycerides) got a lot worse after that. Anthony Mawson says covid involves a dump of retinoids into the blood. It certainly felt like mini hypervitaminosis A to me. Therefore, choline deficiency could be worsened by covid. Also maybe covid is worsened by choline deficiency? This is just an idea. I have not researched it. 

What is the proof that anyone doing a VA detox has a choline deficiency? Has anyone done blood tests or other testing and what were they eating

Quote from sand on February 3, 2023, 7:54 am

Quote from salt on February 3, 2023, 5:34 am

Quote from Jenny on February 3, 2023, 4:24 am

Another point which I’ve thought of is that covid may increase choline requirements. I had the first nasty strain in Jan 2020 and my choline deficiency markers (ALT, triglycerides) got a lot worse after that. Anthony Mawson says covid involves a dump of retinoids into the blood. It certainly felt like mini hypervitaminosis A to me. Therefore, choline deficiency could be worsened by covid. Also maybe covid is worsened by choline deficiency? This is just an idea. I have not researched it. 

What is the proof that anyone doing a VA detox has a choline deficiency? Has anyone done blood tests or other testing and what were they eating

Don't ask difficult questions like this @salt! The eggheads have a higher consciousness, it will be too hard to understand for us. Just use words like "hard detox", "I've never detoxed better...", and "choline deficiency", and you will go under the radar. They complain that they are nothing like doctor Grand Shit, but heck, they are just the same. Really high up on the consciousness ladder.

Quote from salt on February 3, 2023, 9:39 am

Quote from Jessica2 on February 3, 2023, 7:51 am

@salt What is the proof anyone here has hypervitaminosis A? The only sure way to tell on that is to have a liver biopsy. A lot of what goes on here is theory, backed by evidence in many cases. You can find many studies on my thread "the many benefits of choline" and "bile research" that estimate as many as 80-90% of people on westernized diets may be deficient in choline. It isn't that uncommon, just as we all believe here that high vitamin a intake is quite common and probably detrimental.

I know for sure that Vitamin A has some very negative effects on me because I've experimented with it, both in isolated forms, and in foods. I've experimented with both single doses and exposure over longer periods of time. I've experimented with multiple forms of preformed retinol, and with both pro-vitamin carotenoids and "not VA" carotenoids. 

I find it very strange that a large number of posts on this forum are now about eating eggs and other high VA foods like offal. It would be one thing if the recommendation was to take a choline supplement, kinda like how some people think taurine supplements are very helpful, but it seems like all these choline recommendations are all specifically about eating high VA foods, with seemingly not much supporting evidence other than studies saying choline is good for liver disease, and some people reporting feeling better after eating eggs. Well, if you feel better because you have less detox symptoms then that is not necessarily a good thing, it could just be because you're not detoxing VA as much, or not detoxing it at all, anymore. From my own personal experience I know that VA intake stops some unpleasant detox symptoms very quickly, but over time everything falls apart.

Quote from Audrey on February 3, 2023, 10:36 am

Quote from salt on February 3, 2023, 9:39 am

Quote from Jessica2 on February 3, 2023, 7:51 am

@salt What is the proof anyone here has hypervitaminosis A? The only sure way to tell on that is to have a liver biopsy. A lot of what goes on here is theory, backed by evidence in many cases. You can find many studies on my thread "the many benefits of choline" and "bile research" that estimate as many as 80-90% of people on westernized diets may be deficient in choline. It isn't that uncommon, just as we all believe here that high vitamin a intake is quite common and probably detrimental.

I know for sure that Vitamin A has some very negative effects on me because I've experimented with it, both in isolated forms, and in foods. I've experimented with both single doses and exposure over longer periods of time. I've experimented with multiple forms of preformed retinol, and with both pro-vitamin carotenoids and "not VA" carotenoids. 

I find it very strange that a large number of posts on this forum are now about eating eggs and other high VA foods like offal. It would be one thing if the recommendation was to take a choline supplement, kinda like how some people think taurine supplements are very helpful, but it seems like all these choline recommendations are all specifically about eating high VA foods, with seemingly not much supporting evidence other than studies saying choline is good for liver disease, and some people reporting feeling better after eating eggs. Well, if you feel better because you have less detox symptoms then that is not necessarily a good thing, it could just be because you're not detoxing VA as much, or not detoxing it at all, anymore. From my own personal experience I know that VA intake stops some unpleasant detox symptoms very quickly, but over time everything falls apart.

I've had to go super slow with the addition of 1-2 eggs because it has actually increased my detox. 

Quote from Jenny on February 3, 2023, 10:52 am

This is a thread for discussing risk factors for people who consider choline deficiency may be an issue for them. If you aren’t interested then don’t bother reading and commenting. This is likely not an issue that affects everyone. 

I have very clear evidence of likely choline deficiency (triglycerides/ALT) and many risk factors including a low choline diet. This likelihood has now been confirmed by a cell membrane expert. My vA detox/MY vA detox diet has probably caused this issue so I’m putting out a warning for anyone who is interested in this area. 

This forum is a place for polite discussion and exchange of ideas. Grant welcomes all theories. 

Quote from Tobias on February 3, 2023, 12:40 pm

Since my idea of discussion isn't "everyone unanimously agreeing at something", I feel welcome to post here.

You're making it seem like choline deficiency is this insurmountable obstacle which requires great sacrifice to overcome. The rest of us are scratching our heads wondering why you're not just supplementing. It would even help to isolate the benefits of all the high VA food you're pushing to its choline component. I still have a couple of bottles I bought before the cholinquisition if anyone wants them. One of them is sealed.

Quote from sand on February 3, 2023, 1:03 pm

Quote from Audrey on February 3, 2023, 10:36 am

Quote from salt on February 3, 2023, 9:39 am

Quote from Jessica2 on February 3, 2023, 7:51 am

@salt What is the proof anyone here has hypervitaminosis A? The only sure way to tell on that is to have a liver biopsy. A lot of what goes on here is theory, backed by evidence in many cases. You can find many studies on my thread "the many benefits of choline" and "bile research" that estimate as many as 80-90% of people on westernized diets may be deficient in choline. It isn't that uncommon, just as we all believe here that high vitamin a intake is quite common and probably detrimental.

I know for sure that Vitamin A has some very negative effects on me because I've experimented with it, both in isolated forms, and in foods. I've experimented with both single doses and exposure over longer periods of time. I've experimented with multiple forms of preformed retinol, and with both pro-vitamin carotenoids and "not VA" carotenoids. 

I find it very strange that a large number of posts on this forum are now about eating eggs and other high VA foods like offal. It would be one thing if the recommendation was to take a choline supplement, kinda like how some people think taurine supplements are very helpful, but it seems like all these choline recommendations are all specifically about eating high VA foods, with seemingly not much supporting evidence other than studies saying choline is good for liver disease, and some people reporting feeling better after eating eggs. Well, if you feel better because you have less detox symptoms then that is not necessarily a good thing, it could just be because you're not detoxing VA as much, or not detoxing it at all, anymore. From my own personal experience I know that VA intake stops some unpleasant detox symptoms very quickly, but over time everything falls apart.

I've had to go super slow with the addition of 1-2 eggs because it has actually increased my detox. 

And @audrey how do you know it has increased your detox? How do you measure this supposed increased detox versus negative symptoms due to consuming more VA? Have you got any measurements of this increased detox? Thanks for explaining this to me!

Quote from Andrew B on February 3, 2023, 2:25 pm

@jessica2 All we know for sure is that people feel better eating eggs and it's not always replicated by taking a supplement. I've heard from a small number of people that constipation was helped immediately by eating an egg whereas I've not heard the same with the supplement. So we could have a number of factors in the egg that are giving the benefit like sphingomyelin, choline or lecithin. Selenium, iodine, B vitamins and protein are other possibilities but they are in other foods. You can supplement sphingomyelin but why go to great cost when eggs were relatively cheap up until now. That was part of the attraction initially in eating eggs to save on buying expensive meat. The benefit of the choline far outweighing the small amount of Vitamin A in eggs. Eggs are good for baking with as well. Apple sponges, fishcakes, beef burgers, pancakes and fryups dont taste as nice without eggs. So I'll pass on the supplement.

Quote from Tobias on February 3, 2023, 2:46 pm

Quote from Jessica2 on February 3, 2023, 2:02 pm

@jaj It makes me hopeful that experts in the field are recognizing the importance of choline. When I did research on it I found serious inquiries on it only just began in about the '90's. And its perfectly logical and rational that you would want to get this from dietary sources rather than supplements. After all, supplementing brought many of us, including me, here in the first place.

You can post as many studies as you like, none here is doubting the efficacy of choline. The crux of the issue is that instead of giving dietary advice to newcomers more tailored to their individual circumstances, there's just a blanket insistence on eggs/choline. The latest example was such a preposterously misplaced advice that I simply had enough. You're running the risk of unwittingly sabotaging someone's path to recovery with this constant proselytizing. What's safe and slow for you might not be enough to make a dent for someone else.