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Factors influencing likelihood of developing a choline deficiency on a low vA diet
Quote from
Alastair on February 3, 2023, 3:59 pm
Quote from
sand on February 3, 2023, 1:03 pm
Quote from
Audrey on February 3, 2023, 10:36 am
Quote from
salt on February 3, 2023, 9:39 am
Quote from
Jessica2 on February 3, 2023, 7:51 am
@salt What is the proof anyone here has hypervitaminosis A? The only sure way to tell on that is to have a liver biopsy. A lot of what goes on here is theory, backed by evidence in many cases. You can find many studies on my thread "the many benefits of choline" and "bile research" that estimate as many as 80-90% of people on westernized diets may be deficient in choline. It isn't that uncommon, just as we all believe here that high vitamin a intake is quite common and probably detrimental.
I know for sure that Vitamin A has some very negative effects on me because I've experimented with it, both in isolated forms, and in foods. I've experimented with both single doses and exposure over longer periods of time. I've experimented with multiple forms of preformed retinol, and with both pro-vitamin carotenoids and "not VA" carotenoids.
I find it very strange that a large number of posts on this forum are now about eating eggs and other high VA foods like offal. It would be one thing if the recommendation was to take a choline supplement, kinda like how some people think taurine supplements are very helpful, but it seems like all these choline recommendations are all specifically about eating high VA foods, with seemingly not much supporting evidence other than studies saying choline is good for liver disease, and some people reporting feeling better after eating eggs. Well, if you feel better because you have less detox symptoms then that is not necessarily a good thing, it could just be because you're not detoxing VA as much, or not detoxing it at all, anymore. From my own personal experience I know that VA intake stops some unpleasant detox symptoms very quickly, but over time everything falls apart.
I've had to go super slow with the addition of 1-2 eggs because it has actually increased my detox.
And @audrey how do you know it has increased your detox? How do you measure this supposed increased detox versus negative symptoms due to consuming more VA? Have you got any measurements of this increased detox? Thanks for explaining this to me!
Since you asked @sand, it makes you crap bright yellow. For me now, that's every time I go, before it was some of the time. That's the major advantage I have seen with choline replenishment when detoxing vit A- it increases the detox route through the bowel, which is the route that causes the least toxicity. Last summer I had sores breaking out on my legs and micro blisters on the soles of my feet. That's all gone now with choline replenishment. I'm now up to 4 eggs and 2 teaspoons of lecithin a day. Don't knock it if you haven't tried it...
Quote from
sand on February 3, 2023, 1:03 pm
Quote from
Audrey on February 3, 2023, 10:36 am
Quote from
salt on February 3, 2023, 9:39 am
Quote from
Jessica2 on February 3, 2023, 7:51 am
@salt What is the proof anyone here has hypervitaminosis A? The only sure way to tell on that is to have a liver biopsy. A lot of what goes on here is theory, backed by evidence in many cases. You can find many studies on my thread "the many benefits of choline" and "bile research" that estimate as many as 80-90% of people on westernized diets may be deficient in choline. It isn't that uncommon, just as we all believe here that high vitamin a intake is quite common and probably detrimental.
I know for sure that Vitamin A has some very negative effects on me because I've experimented with it, both in isolated forms, and in foods. I've experimented with both single doses and exposure over longer periods of time. I've experimented with multiple forms of preformed retinol, and with both pro-vitamin carotenoids and "not VA" carotenoids.
I find it very strange that a large number of posts on this forum are now about eating eggs and other high VA foods like offal. It would be one thing if the recommendation was to take a choline supplement, kinda like how some people think taurine supplements are very helpful, but it seems like all these choline recommendations are all specifically about eating high VA foods, with seemingly not much supporting evidence other than studies saying choline is good for liver disease, and some people reporting feeling better after eating eggs. Well, if you feel better because you have less detox symptoms then that is not necessarily a good thing, it could just be because you're not detoxing VA as much, or not detoxing it at all, anymore. From my own personal experience I know that VA intake stops some unpleasant detox symptoms very quickly, but over time everything falls apart.
I've had to go super slow with the addition of 1-2 eggs because it has actually increased my detox.
And @audrey how do you know it has increased your detox? How do you measure this supposed increased detox versus negative symptoms due to consuming more VA? Have you got any measurements of this increased detox? Thanks for explaining this to me!
Since you asked @sand, it makes you crap bright yellow. For me now, that's every time I go, before it was some of the time. That's the major advantage I have seen with choline replenishment when detoxing vit A- it increases the detox route through the bowel, which is the route that causes the least toxicity. Last summer I had sores breaking out on my legs and micro blisters on the soles of my feet. That's all gone now with choline replenishment. I'm now up to 4 eggs and 2 teaspoons of lecithin a day. Don't knock it if you haven't tried it...
Jenny, Navn and 2 other users have reacted to this post.
JennyNavnDeleted userAndrew B
Quote from
Tobias on February 3, 2023, 4:02 pm
Don't ask difficult questions like this @salt! The eggheads have a higher consciousness, it will be too hard to understand for us. Just use words like "hard detox", "I've never detoxed better...", and "choline deficiency", and you will go under the radar. They complain that they are nothing like doctor Grand Shit, but heck, they are just the same. Really high up on the consciousness ladder.
QFT
Don't ask difficult questions like this @salt! The eggheads have a higher consciousness, it will be too hard to understand for us. Just use words like "hard detox", "I've never detoxed better...", and "choline deficiency", and you will go under the radar. They complain that they are nothing like doctor Grand Shit, but heck, they are just the same. Really high up on the consciousness ladder.
QFT
Quote from
Tobias on February 3, 2023, 5:29 pm
Quote from
Alastair on February 3, 2023, 3:59 pm
Since you asked @sand, it makes you crap bright yellow. For me now, that's every time I go, before it was some of the time. That's the major advantage I have seen with choline replenishment when detoxing vit A- it increases the detox route through the bowel, which is the route that causes the least toxicity. Last summer I had sores breaking out on my legs and micro blisters on the soles of my feet. That's all gone now with choline replenishment. I'm now up to 4 eggs and 2 teaspoons of lecithin a day. Don't knock it if you haven't tried it...
Quote from
Andrew B on February 3, 2023, 2:25 pm
@jessica2 All we know for sure is that people feel better eating eggs and it's not always replicated by taking a supplement.
Quote from
Paola on February 2, 2023, 4:22 am
What some interpret as making the detox safe, may be simply induced cholestasis from the vit A in the eggs ... I know cholestasis makes me feel FANTASTIC, something I can induce at will with a high fat diet.
Quote from
Alastair on February 3, 2023, 3:59 pm
Since you asked @sand, it makes you crap bright yellow. For me now, that's every time I go, before it was some of the time. That's the major advantage I have seen with choline replenishment when detoxing vit A- it increases the detox route through the bowel, which is the route that causes the least toxicity. Last summer I had sores breaking out on my legs and micro blisters on the soles of my feet. That's all gone now with choline replenishment. I'm now up to 4 eggs and 2 teaspoons of lecithin a day. Don't knock it if you haven't tried it...
Quote from
Andrew B on February 3, 2023, 2:25 pm
@jessica2 All we know for sure is that people feel better eating eggs and it's not always replicated by taking a supplement.
Quote from
Paola on February 2, 2023, 4:22 am
What some interpret as making the detox safe, may be simply induced cholestasis from the vit A in the eggs ... I know cholestasis makes me feel FANTASTIC, something I can induce at will with a high fat diet.
Frankly, EVERYONE here is generally guessing, and it is annoying when that guesswork is portrayed as fact.
Unless you directly measured a biological process (which nobody here is doing as far as I can tell), please don't keep making cause-effect statements based on your assumptions. Instead of constantly saying "eggs speed up my detox", or "such and such gives me cholestasis", it would be more useful to carefully explain how those things changed your symptoms and why you think that represents improved elimination of Vitamin A or not.
Frankly, EVERYONE here is generally guessing, and it is annoying when that guesswork is portrayed as fact.
Unless you directly measured a biological process (which nobody here is doing as far as I can tell), please don't keep making cause-effect statements based on your assumptions. Instead of constantly saying "eggs speed up my detox", or "such and such gives me cholestasis", it would be more useful to carefully explain how those things changed your symptoms and why you think that represents improved elimination of Vitamin A or not.
Quote from
Alastair on February 3, 2023, 8:14 pm
Frankly, EVERYONE here is generally guessing, and it is annoying when that guesswork is portrayed as fact.
Unless you directly measured a biological process (which nobody here is doing as far as I can tell), please don't keep making cause-effect statements based on your assumptions. Instead of constantly saying "eggs speed up my detox", or "such and such gives me cholestasis", it would be more useful to carefully explain how those things changed your symptoms and why you think that represents improved elimination of Vitamin A or not.
@wavygravygadzooks Read my post. That's exactly what I explained. It's nothing to do with 'guesswork'.
Frankly, EVERYONE here is generally guessing, and it is annoying when that guesswork is portrayed as fact.
Unless you directly measured a biological process (which nobody here is doing as far as I can tell), please don't keep making cause-effect statements based on your assumptions. Instead of constantly saying "eggs speed up my detox", or "such and such gives me cholestasis", it would be more useful to carefully explain how those things changed your symptoms and why you think that represents improved elimination of Vitamin A or not.
@wavygravygadzooks Read my post. That's exactly what I explained. It's nothing to do with 'guesswork'.
Navn, Deleted user and Andrew B have reacted to this post.
Quote from
Audrey on February 4, 2023, 2:35 am
Quote from
sand on February 3, 2023, 1:03 pm
Quote from
Audrey on February 3, 2023, 10:36 am
Quote from
salt on February 3, 2023, 9:39 am
Quote from
Jessica2 on February 3, 2023, 7:51 am
@salt What is the proof anyone here has hypervitaminosis A? The only sure way to tell on that is to have a liver biopsy. A lot of what goes on here is theory, backed by evidence in many cases. You can find many studies on my thread "the many benefits of choline" and "bile research" that estimate as many as 80-90% of people on westernized diets may be deficient in choline. It isn't that uncommon, just as we all believe here that high vitamin a intake is quite common and probably detrimental.
I know for sure that Vitamin A has some very negative effects on me because I've experimented with it, both in isolated forms, and in foods. I've experimented with both single doses and exposure over longer periods of time. I've experimented with multiple forms of preformed retinol, and with both pro-vitamin carotenoids and "not VA" carotenoids.
I find it very strange that a large number of posts on this forum are now about eating eggs and other high VA foods like offal. It would be one thing if the recommendation was to take a choline supplement, kinda like how some people think taurine supplements are very helpful, but it seems like all these choline recommendations are all specifically about eating high VA foods, with seemingly not much supporting evidence other than studies saying choline is good for liver disease, and some people reporting feeling better after eating eggs. Well, if you feel better because you have less detox symptoms then that is not necessarily a good thing, it could just be because you're not detoxing VA as much, or not detoxing it at all, anymore. From my own personal experience I know that VA intake stops some unpleasant detox symptoms very quickly, but over time everything falls apart.
I've had to go super slow with the addition of 1-2 eggs because it has actually increased my detox.
And @audrey how do you know it has increased your detox? How do you measure this supposed increased detox versus negative symptoms due to consuming more VA? Have you got any measurements of this increased detox? Thanks for explaining this to me!
After a 'honeymoon' period of feeling really good (around the 3 year mark) I added in 2 eggs daily which seemed ok at first, but then the old liver twinges returned, and my pooping increased (5-6 times) with lots of yellow. Anxiety returned. All same symptoms of when I eat too much fibre/beans, sometimes sh+tting in the middle of the night, no fun. I also added in daily a bit of sourdough bread at this time and 2 big spoons of quinoa for betaine. I cut back to one egg and stopped the bread and my bowel movements went down to 2 times a day, no panicking, pooping better than I have in a long while. Liver area is feeling much better now and anxiety is pretty much gone. I'm giving the eggs until end of April to really assess things, which would be around 6 months of 1, sometimes 2 eggs, a day. It's an experiment for sure but to me it feels like increase of detox, just like when going too quick with too much fibre/beans.
Quote from
sand on February 3, 2023, 1:03 pm
Quote from
Audrey on February 3, 2023, 10:36 am
Quote from
salt on February 3, 2023, 9:39 am
Quote from
Jessica2 on February 3, 2023, 7:51 am
@salt What is the proof anyone here has hypervitaminosis A? The only sure way to tell on that is to have a liver biopsy. A lot of what goes on here is theory, backed by evidence in many cases. You can find many studies on my thread "the many benefits of choline" and "bile research" that estimate as many as 80-90% of people on westernized diets may be deficient in choline. It isn't that uncommon, just as we all believe here that high vitamin a intake is quite common and probably detrimental.
I know for sure that Vitamin A has some very negative effects on me because I've experimented with it, both in isolated forms, and in foods. I've experimented with both single doses and exposure over longer periods of time. I've experimented with multiple forms of preformed retinol, and with both pro-vitamin carotenoids and "not VA" carotenoids.
I find it very strange that a large number of posts on this forum are now about eating eggs and other high VA foods like offal. It would be one thing if the recommendation was to take a choline supplement, kinda like how some people think taurine supplements are very helpful, but it seems like all these choline recommendations are all specifically about eating high VA foods, with seemingly not much supporting evidence other than studies saying choline is good for liver disease, and some people reporting feeling better after eating eggs. Well, if you feel better because you have less detox symptoms then that is not necessarily a good thing, it could just be because you're not detoxing VA as much, or not detoxing it at all, anymore. From my own personal experience I know that VA intake stops some unpleasant detox symptoms very quickly, but over time everything falls apart.
I've had to go super slow with the addition of 1-2 eggs because it has actually increased my detox.
And @audrey how do you know it has increased your detox? How do you measure this supposed increased detox versus negative symptoms due to consuming more VA? Have you got any measurements of this increased detox? Thanks for explaining this to me!
After a 'honeymoon' period of feeling really good (around the 3 year mark) I added in 2 eggs daily which seemed ok at first, but then the old liver twinges returned, and my pooping increased (5-6 times) with lots of yellow. Anxiety returned. All same symptoms of when I eat too much fibre/beans, sometimes sh+tting in the middle of the night, no fun. I also added in daily a bit of sourdough bread at this time and 2 big spoons of quinoa for betaine. I cut back to one egg and stopped the bread and my bowel movements went down to 2 times a day, no panicking, pooping better than I have in a long while. Liver area is feeling much better now and anxiety is pretty much gone. I'm giving the eggs until end of April to really assess things, which would be around 6 months of 1, sometimes 2 eggs, a day. It's an experiment for sure but to me it feels like increase of detox, just like when going too quick with too much fibre/beans.
Navn, Deleted user and Andrew B have reacted to this post.
Quote from
Andrew B on February 4, 2023, 2:42 am
We have people resolving problems from decades ago. Problems that never resolved with Vit A toxicity and cholestasis. They now eat an egg and the problems begin resolving. Constipation goes away the next day. Serum retinol has been measured for two persons so far and it's gone up after 2 eggs. I dont consider that cholestasis in the person who had low serum retinol before. I see it as an improvement and their serious problem has got better than at any point during vit A detox.
I've been monitoring my own symptoms for years. Problem from 40 years ago is resolving. There's no way this is cholestasis. I even had to slow the detox down (slight headaches one sign). I've given more details in other posts. Plenty of people are attempting the experiment and reporting strong detox and improvements. So suddenly we discount all the good news and dont trust people's anecdotes ? I can demonstrate how much better I am (at least 30 things). There's no ambiguity. And where would I get extra Vitamin A from ? Eggs would take years to build up Vit A (even without the choline). I'll keep helping people that want help. Dr S didnt believe me and missed out on the big answer. More fool him.
We have people resolving problems from decades ago. Problems that never resolved with Vit A toxicity and cholestasis. They now eat an egg and the problems begin resolving. Constipation goes away the next day. Serum retinol has been measured for two persons so far and it's gone up after 2 eggs. I dont consider that cholestasis in the person who had low serum retinol before. I see it as an improvement and their serious problem has got better than at any point during vit A detox.
I've been monitoring my own symptoms for years. Problem from 40 years ago is resolving. There's no way this is cholestasis. I even had to slow the detox down (slight headaches one sign). I've given more details in other posts. Plenty of people are attempting the experiment and reporting strong detox and improvements. So suddenly we discount all the good news and dont trust people's anecdotes ? I can demonstrate how much better I am (at least 30 things). There's no ambiguity. And where would I get extra Vitamin A from ? Eggs would take years to build up Vit A (even without the choline). I'll keep helping people that want help. Dr S didnt believe me and missed out on the big answer. More fool him.
Jenny, Audrey and Deleted user have reacted to this post.
Quote from
Andrew B on February 4, 2023, 3:04 am
@audrey Yes, the results were a bit unexpected at first. And we had been conditioned into thinking more eggs would be a halt to the detox. Hence, like you I gave it 6 months before assessing what exactly I thought was happening. The bowel movements kept improving gradually. I had to slow things down as absorption improved, fat digestion got better across the board. One family has been adding the eggs from not long after me. We will get more results but now the story is switching to it's because of cholestasis. We will never convince these doubters even with strong recovery and test results. Nothing has happened to suggest cholestasis has increased. That's quite a funny explanation of all the reversals of debilitating conditions.
@audrey Yes, the results were a bit unexpected at first. And we had been conditioned into thinking more eggs would be a halt to the detox. Hence, like you I gave it 6 months before assessing what exactly I thought was happening. The bowel movements kept improving gradually. I had to slow things down as absorption improved, fat digestion got better across the board. One family has been adding the eggs from not long after me. We will get more results but now the story is switching to it's because of cholestasis. We will never convince these doubters even with strong recovery and test results. Nothing has happened to suggest cholestasis has increased. That's quite a funny explanation of all the reversals of debilitating conditions.
Jenny, Audrey and Deleted user have reacted to this post.
Quote from
Andrew B on February 4, 2023, 3:35 am
@alastair yes, you've reported massive benefits previously. I look forward to your full post about it. I had to slow a few things down because the detox became quite strong. I also made a mistake of eating a much higher fat beef mince and that started a little heartburn. I'm doing another experiment and it's early days but seems to be helping the heartburn so I didnt keep using the activated charcoal. Hilarious, people think we are experiencing cholestasis.
@alastair yes, you've reported massive benefits previously. I look forward to your full post about it. I had to slow a few things down because the detox became quite strong. I also made a mistake of eating a much higher fat beef mince and that started a little heartburn. I'm doing another experiment and it's early days but seems to be helping the heartburn so I didnt keep using the activated charcoal. Hilarious, people think we are experiencing cholestasis.
Jenny, Audrey and 2 other users have reacted to this post.
JennyAudreyNavnDeleted user
Quote from
Audrey on February 4, 2023, 3:59 am
Hi @andrew-b I'm curious which things you've had to slow down... is it only the higher fat beef? How many eggs are you eating?
Hi @andrew-b I'm curious which things you've had to slow down... is it only the higher fat beef? How many eggs are you eating?
Andrew B has reacted to this post.
