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Factors influencing likelihood of developing a choline deficiency on a low vA diet
@audrey all the things I spoke of before. I reduced the major protein from 2.75 kgs to 2 kgs in my shopping for about 10 days. I increased carbohydrates a bit. I reduced fibre initially. And I've been able to eat more vegetables including potatoes now without cramps. The higher beef was a thing I tried a couple of times and it backfired. Then I had to be cautious about other high fats for a spell.
Quote from Andrew B on February 4, 2023, 4:07 am@audrey all the things I spoke of before. I reduced the major protein from 2.75 kgs to 2 kgs in my shopping for about 10 days. I increased carbohydrates a bit. I reduced fibre initially. And I've been able to eat more vegetables including potatoes now without cramps. The higher beef was a thing I tried a couple of times and it backfired. Then I had to be cautious about other high fats for a spell.
Sorry @andrew-b, I thought you were speaking of quite recently.
This is in reply to something @jaj posted about choline deficiency symptoms on another thread, like muscle aches and nerve damage, all of which I am curious about, and trying to connect the dots.
The muscle aches and nerve damage specifically interest me. I've always looked at B12 and B1 for nerves and magnesium/potassium for the muscle aches, and now I am thinking induced choline deficiency is something to seriously consider too in this equation, as some of these other things have not helped my symptoms, and seem to have only made them worse in the past. And being a low meat eater on this diet, beforehand as well, I feel I have most likely run into a major choline deficiency. Also, anxiety is a symptom of choline deficiency too, which is one of the things that have improved for me whilst eating eggs. Could be that I am able to absorb certain nutrients better now from the eggs, like Andrew sometimes says can happen.
@audrey one friend is having better muscle co-ordination from eating 2 eggs a day. Gait has improved. Rather than an absorption benefit we think it's choline helping acetylcholine and nerve impulses. Again this is a very long term problem from decades ago exacerbated by high Vit A.
The sphingomyelin high in eggs might also be playing a part. Brain and cognitive development. https://www.eneuro.org/content/6/4/ENEURO.0421-18.2019
Quote from Alastair on February 3, 2023, 3:59 pmQuote from sand on February 3, 2023, 1:03 pmQuote from Audrey on February 3, 2023, 10:36 amQuote from salt on February 3, 2023, 9:39 amQuote from Jessica2 on February 3, 2023, 7:51 am@salt What is the proof anyone here has hypervitaminosis A? The only sure way to tell on that is to have a liver biopsy. A lot of what goes on here is theory, backed by evidence in many cases. You can find many studies on my thread "the many benefits of choline" and "bile research" that estimate as many as 80-90% of people on westernized diets may be deficient in choline. It isn't that uncommon, just as we all believe here that high vitamin a intake is quite common and probably detrimental.
I know for sure that Vitamin A has some very negative effects on me because I've experimented with it, both in isolated forms, and in foods. I've experimented with both single doses and exposure over longer periods of time. I've experimented with multiple forms of preformed retinol, and with both pro-vitamin carotenoids and "not VA" carotenoids.
I find it very strange that a large number of posts on this forum are now about eating eggs and other high VA foods like offal. It would be one thing if the recommendation was to take a choline supplement, kinda like how some people think taurine supplements are very helpful, but it seems like all these choline recommendations are all specifically about eating high VA foods, with seemingly not much supporting evidence other than studies saying choline is good for liver disease, and some people reporting feeling better after eating eggs. Well, if you feel better because you have less detox symptoms then that is not necessarily a good thing, it could just be because you're not detoxing VA as much, or not detoxing it at all, anymore. From my own personal experience I know that VA intake stops some unpleasant detox symptoms very quickly, but over time everything falls apart.
I've had to go super slow with the addition of 1-2 eggs because it has actually increased my detox.
And @audrey how do you know it has increased your detox? How do you measure this supposed increased detox versus negative symptoms due to consuming more VA? Have you got any measurements of this increased detox? Thanks for explaining this to me!
Since you asked @sand, it makes you crap bright yellow. For me now, that's every time I go, before it was some of the time. That's the major advantage I have seen with choline replenishment when detoxing vit A- it increases the detox route through the bowel, which is the route that causes the least toxicity. Last summer I had sores breaking out on my legs and micro blisters on the soles of my feet. That's all gone now with choline replenishment. I'm now up to 4 eggs and 2 teaspoons of lecithin a day. Don't knock it if you haven't tried it...
I'm not knocking _it_, I'm knocking the way this information is being presented. There is just so much speculation being put forward as proven facts, or something of high certainty. It is almost religious. Thanks for eggsplaining this to me, though! Interesting about the crapping bright yellow. I had some of that 9-10 months ago, but it stopped. Anyway, how do you know that you no longer get sores and micro blisters because you are detoxing less, because you are adding VA to your diet through eggs?
I'm eating 600g-1kg of meat per day, so I should be crapping radiating yellow if choline was this hero it is being put forward as, but I'm as brown as can be.
You said of choline: "it makes you crap bright yellow" and "it increases the detox route through the bowel" and "[my blisters are] all gone now with choline replenishment". Those are all causal relationships you are assuming but cannot prove due to confounding variables (one confounding variable in every n=1 experiment is time...if you stop eating Vitamin A, then you would expect Vitamin A levels to decline over time regardless of anything else you do, and therefore any change that is interpreted as improvement could simply be due to additional time passing and not to a particular intervention taken during that time period).
You said you had bright yellow poop before you increased your choline intake (via eggs and lecithin), but that you appear to have it more consistently after increasing eggs and lecithin. (1) You can't say it's the choline that's causing this because there's a number of other things in eggs and lecithin, and (2) you can't say that that yellow is Vitamin A and that it is "increased detox" because you haven't had your stool analyzed or had your liver stores monitored. Maybe your assumption is correct and it is Vitamin A (personally, I tend to think so), and maybe it is the choline in eggs and lecithin that is contributing, but without measuring a number of parameters directly you cannot say this with great confidence...it could be that the yellow is actually bile acid and the additional choline and Vitamin A intake from the eggs has caused your liver to dump bile acid into the colon in an effort to avoid further Vitamin A uptake in the small intestines.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I personally don't have much reason to doubt the benefits of small amounts of eggs for Vitamin A toxicity. However, it seems unwise, and it is certainly unscientific, to assume that something that verifiably contains both retinol and beta-carotene wouldn't significantly slow the elimination of Vitamin A from the liver in at least some people, and thereby lead to a change in symptoms that could be interpreted as improvement.
Also, something doesn't have to induce cholestasis to encourage Vitamin A accumulation in the liver...lots of people seem to incorrectly assume that you must have cholestasis if Vitamin A is not being depleted in the liver, probably because dipSmith has used "Vitamin A toxicity" synonymously with "cholestasis", which is clearly wrong.
I'll say it once more...you all may be correct about choline and/or eggs, but you are presenting some serious speculation as fact, and you are doing it all over this forum constantly these days. By all means, keep accumulating anecdotal evidence and looking at publications to bolster your hypothesis, but admit to yourself and everyone else that you are far from showing cause and effect, just like Grant cannot show that it was the removal of Vitamin A from his diet that led to his improvements due to a pile of confounding factors.
Get our own egg forum where you don't have to substantiate or moderate your claims/beliefs.
@jessica2
Forgive my childish desires for accurate information...I forget that having to wade through bullshit and read between the lines is the status quo. My science upbringings have spoiled me rotten.
Bart Kay was turned into a newt but muscle meat carnivore cured him...that's a lot more impressive than eggs making you feel better. +1 for carnivore 😉
@jessica2
What I'm suggesting would benefit everyone, not just me. It would also encourage the people writing the information to maintain a healthy level of skepticism about their own bias, which is otherwise liable to pull them down a path without more critical thought. Everyone benefits from striving to be more scientific in matters of logic and reason.