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Hi everybody. About 9 months into vA detox.
Quote from wavygravygadzooks on February 19, 2023, 4:27 pmYou mean Paul Saladino was taking that much supplemental Vitamin C?! I didn't know he was ever doing that...interesting. Do you remember where that was mentioned? Presumably in a video/interview? I'd like to hear him talk about it.
Paul Jaminet, of PerfectHealthDiet.
Oh, lol. Sorry, when I hear "Paul" my brain immediately jumps to Saladino... I'm so curious what is going on in Saladino's body...I think we would gain a lot of insight into Vitamin A metabolism if we had a little more labwork from him and knew everything he'd been doing for the past few years. Mainly, I want to know if the fructose he's eating is speeding or slowing Vitamin A metabolism for him, and whether the fiber in the fruit he's been eating is playing any role or whether he would be getting the same effect from eating just a ton of honey. I saw the very beginning of one of his "what I eat in a day" videos on somebody else's YouTube channel and it started with him putting maple syrup in a glass of raw milk (!) first thing in the morning, and then drinking a huge glass of orange juice after he finished surfing. That alone had so much sugar in it, and then I'm sure he went on to eat some other sweet fruits and/or honey later in the day. Seems like approximately half of his ~300g of daily carbs are in the form of fructose, which to me sounds like a lot.
Quote from Armin on February 18, 2023, 10:06 pmI also joined the program of a certain doctor around 9 months ago. None of the solutions there really helped at all. I frequent this forum much more than the other one due to this one not being censored. I check up on the other forum from time to time but there isn't really anything new or interesting being discussed. Just parroting the same stuff with no one really getting any better.
Since questioning the logic of a certain doctor, I have been looking into choline, and more recently, Vitamin C. I believe I have been very low on Vitamin C for quite a while and certainly over the past 10 years. Keratosis pilaris, fatigue, joint pain, layers of dead skin on scalp (not seb) among others that would line up with low Vitamin C levels.
Going keto and then carnivore, thus intaking insufficient Vitamin C probably caught up to me. Carnivore teaches that we probably don't need plants for Vitamin C due to not eating carbs, etc and that may be true in the rare situations where people aren't too sick to recover but foolish to make the outliers the rule. A certain doctor then suggested that Vitamin C was to be avoided due to it "slowing down the liver". Recipe for disaster.
Choline and Vitamin C both help with liver health, both detox and produce bile, both change the microbiome for the better. I don't buy the idea that these 2 compounds shut down the liver. I see just the opposite. I think if you lack these compounds, among others, you are more likely to suffer from a "backfiring liver".
Fiber causing a "bile dump" is something I question now too as it doesn't make much sense to me. Soluble fiber not agreeing with ones is a far cry from conclusive evidence that it is dumping bile. What exactly is the supposed mechanism? I've heard the idea that excreted bile makes the body make more bile. But from my experience of using binders like activated charcoal, I don't get the same negative reaction at all. The type of fiber seems to matter to ones as well as the quantity. I would guess that introducing new fermentable fibers impacts the microbiome and sometimes too much can cause problems, ala SIBO/SIFO/etc.
A certain doctor heralded a paper about how apples produce more bile. Interesting. What compounds in apples could be responsible?
Fructose?
Quercetin?
Fiber?
Vitamin C?
Quercetin and Vitamin C are the 2 that I would pin my hat on as there is evidence that they produce bile.
Just a few thoughts I've had recently.
I did keto and then carnivore on and off for 2 years when I developed SIBO, gluten sensitivity, and other digestive issues in 2017–2018. It masked the problem for some time but eventually came crashing down in 2020. It started with a weird dizziness and feeling high (only the bad effects though; none of the fun ones) all the time. It eventually progressed to a lot of pain around the liver and in various other places and an inability to sleep well. I basically didn't sleep the entire month of September 2020. I'm still figuring things out, but I learned not to trust neatly packed ideologies.
Quote from Jenny on February 19, 2023, 2:43 am@armin 110% agree. Well said
I think high dose vC is not a good idea but getting the RDA (and up to 200mg a day) I’d say is a very good idea. I’ve introduced more fruit and some supplements to ensure I’m getting enough. I don’t think I was.
As for choline. Well…I think choline deficiency (from following a certain ‘Dr’ suggestions) nearly killed me. I’m a big fan of getting enough choline. Without enough the liver develops NAFLD and bile flow comes to a stand still. Is that loving your liver? I think not.
Producing healthy quantities of bile is good and the aim for any detox. However, issues occur if there is leaks in the system (bile reflux, leaky gut). Bile toxins then get into the blood and cause symptoms. Going low and slow seems to be the best way. I overdid the phosaphtidylcholine and got bile in the blood symptoms. It worked a little bit too well! I did get a similar result from Karen Hurd bean protocol so I think that improves bile flow too. Can call it a ‘bile dump’ (hate the term) or can call it a healthy bile flow (with negative consequences if leaks present). It’s the leaks that are the issue not the healthy bile flow imo.
What do you think was the mechanism in Karen Hurd's bean protocol that lead to improved bile flow? AFAIK, there doesn't seem to be as much of a focus on choline as fiber there, but with a lot less restrictions than a certain doctor's program.
Quote from Andrew B on February 19, 2023, 2:47 am@aleksey I'd emphasise a varied diet which helps the gut microbiome. Dr S tends to restrict foods for only one small reason and omits the positive reasons we eat them like mushrooms for B vitamins and beta glucan fibre. Fruits with polyphenols are frowned upon and they also can help the gut microbiome. I was the one who started an eggs experiment back in April last year and Dr S asked me to stop posting about them when my experiment was very successful for me. So we now have a lot of people now testing eggs and most doing well apart from some who overreact to the choline stimulus. Many getting improvements with long term problems. I eat foods for Vitamin C and Vitamin E as well. I overdid the beans so I'd say eat some eggs first if tolerated and help cell membranes whilst looking at a variety of foods. Dr S isnt keen on cruciferous vegetables or sulfur foods either yet I find these very helpful for bile flow.
@armin Apples also have glucaric acid which helps detox and the biliary system. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.3109/00365529009095540
Thanks for the pointers, @andrew-b! I love apples but haven't been too big on cruciferous veggies for some time, mostly because they are recommended against by both Dr. S. and the Ray Peat crowd, but also they seem to cause a lot of gas for me.
Regarding sugar, I really think we should be able to handle reasonable amounts with no problem. By reasonable, I mean somewhere in the realm of 5 pieces of fruit and a few teaspoons of honey per day. I do have apple juice occasionally as well, but I don't think juice is a good idea as a staple. That said, one of the first problems with sugar is its effect on teeth when one isn't in an optimal enough state of health to produce a properly antiseptic and slightly alkaline saliva.
Well, I'm not sure what is to blame but the past couple of weeks have been worse than usual. Could it be going too fast with eggs? Maybe I should try 1 per day instead of 2 for some time to see the difference. Could it be that I eat too much potatoes and the oxalate or whatever else that isn't ideal in them. Maybe I should try lowering those for a while? I also haven't been supplementing the zinc or selenium regularly.
Eggs can speed things up too fast, I have been eating 1 egg a day for almost 6 months, sometimes 2 is still too much.
“What do you think was the mechanism in Karen Hurd's bean protocol that lead to improved bile flow? AFAIK, there doesn't seem to be as much of a focus on choline as fiber there, but with a lot less restrictions than a certain doctor's program.“
Karen tells her clients consume a palm sized amount of “efficient protein” (by which she means meats, fish, and/or eggs NOT dairy) at every single meal, three times per day no exceptions. That should result in getting to the RDA for choline, but additionally there’s choline in legumes.
“Well, I'm not sure what is to blame but the past couple of weeks have been worse than usual. Could it be going too fast with eggs? Maybe I should try 1 per day instead of 2 for some time to see the difference. Could it be that I eat too much potatoes and the oxalate or whatever else that isn't ideal in them. Maybe I should try lowering those for a while? I also haven't been supplementing the zinc or selenium regularly.”
I’m sorry you’re not feeling great.
I do feel a negative difference if I skip a few days of zinc, even after four years doing this. Not everyone needs it, of course. Did you find it helpful when you were taking it?