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Jenny’s pros and cons of vA detox
I think color of stool can often represent the pigments in food. Perhaps Jiri's stool was darker in Croatia eating meat because meat does have pigments. When I have chocolate my stools are darker.
It isn't the whole story though, obviously there is more to it.
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Quote from wavygravygadzooks on December 14, 2022, 3:53 pmInteresting that the pattern seemed to change so quickly when leaving and returning to your home.
When you say yellow stool, do you mean the entire thing is like a pale yellow color? I've experienced both normal dark brown solid stool with bright yellow leaching out of it, and overall pale stool that I would not call yellow, it's just pale (wouldn't call it chalky or whitish either, just not the normal dark brown). It actually seems like the pale stools tend to have something orange that leaches out of them, rather than yellow. I haven't really seen the bold yellow in my stools for about a year now, maybe just once or twice when I had a bout of crazy watery diarrhea out of the blue in the middle of the night. I see an orange color leaching out of almost every one of my stools lately though.
The brown color does supposedly come from bilirubin, which comes from red blood cells as you mentioned. The bacteria in the intestines/colon supposedly act on it, which turns it from yellow-orange to brown. So it seems like there are several potential sources of yellow/orange colors in the stool: bilirubin, bile acids, and Vitamin A.
Yeah, since I can't confidently distinguish between the sources of the yellow and orange colors, I'm not sure if it's a good thing or a bad thing. All I know is that I never had anything like it until I removed Vitamin A from my diet, and then I started getting it all the time. Until I removed Vitamin A, I was eating a ton of eggs, liver, and plenty of meat. After I removed Vitamin A, I was basically carnivore with 2-3+ pounds of meat per day. I'm almost positive I was not low on choline at the beginning when I started getting the colorful stools, and I'm pretty sure I've been eating enough meat to keep my choline levels sufficiently high throughout my low Vitamin A diet. Based on all this and a constant rotation of Vitamin A toxicity symptoms in the skin that really only started AFTER I cut Vitamin A from the diet, the only conclusion that really makes sense is that all of these things indicate Vitamin A making its way out of the body. It may not have been the best route for minimizing damage, hard to say.
So are you FEELING better now overall, does it feel right?
If you're asking me...some things are improved, others not so much. Lots of skin, nail, and mucus membrane problems that started after removing Vitamin A have diminished or disappeared. Some strange mental/neurological stuff has also diminished or disappeared (particularly happy about vertigo/dizziness going away). The main issues that remain for me are incessant muscle twitching and cramping (which causes generalized fatigue and exercise intolerance), GI problems, gum recession, and a tiny bit of dry/overkeratinized skin. I had oxalate problems 2 years ago when I went low Vitamin A and carnivore, so I can't rule out oxalates as a possible ongoing cause of these symptoms, but I'm almost positive some of them stem from ongoing Vitamin A issues.
The muscle twitching and GI issues seem like they could be the result of imbalanced sympathetic/parasympathetic systems, although I'm not sure how to change that without attempting to completely stop any kind of detox. My nightly Heart Rate Variability has tanked over the past 2 years, which supports the idea of autonomic nerve dysfunction. I was a serious athlete with nightly HRVs in the 120's and a resting heart rate in the 30's. Now I'm stuck with an HRV in the 50's and 60's and a RHR that fluctuates between 45 and 50. I've tried lifestyle changes, but they don't consistently move the needle. I've never seen any hard evidence of potassium channels getting "blocked" by Vitamin A, but at this point that would probably provide the best explanation for my experience. Taking more potassium does nothing...in fact, the more minerals and nutrients I take, the worse things seem to get. And taking potassium seems to cause almost instantaneous flushing sensations, which I now interpret as the potassium getting absorbed rapidly but not making it into the cells, and instead causing a dilation in my blood vessels and a corresponding drop in blood pressure until my kidneys get rid of it. (Sidenote: if dipSmith is on his banana binge trying to get more potassium, that's pretty fucking stupid)
@jessica2 very good points. The body tends to do what is best for the body at that moment in time and mopping up excess free retinols by liver would seem sensible.
@jessica2
Right, and the fact that the liver has the ability to expand in order to accommodate more retinyl esters in stellate cells indicates that it is built to do such a thing as a protective measure to the body so that the rest of the body does not suffer instead. To be sure, an enlarged liver is a bad sign, but better that than having what it's storing get shoved elsewhere. In terms of eliminating excess Vitamin A from the body, the primary route appears to be the liver, so you've got to get the Vitamin A from the blood into the liver somehow, and having it enter as retinyl esters appears to be the default and preferable form of that happening.
Quote from wavygravygadzooks on December 14, 2022, 5:39 pmIf you're asking me...some things are improved, others not so much. Lots of skin, nail, and mucus membrane problems that started after removing Vitamin A have diminished or disappeared. Some strange mental/neurological stuff has also diminished or disappeared (particularly happy about vertigo/dizziness going away). The main issues that remain for me are incessant muscle twitching and cramping (which causes generalized fatigue and exercise intolerance), GI problems, gum recession, and a tiny bit of dry/overkeratinized skin. I had oxalate problems 2 years ago when I went low Vitamin A and carnivore, so I can't rule out oxalates as a possible ongoing cause of these symptoms, but I'm almost positive some of them stem from ongoing Vitamin A issues.
The muscle twitching and GI issues seem like they could be the result of imbalanced sympathetic/parasympathetic systems, although I'm not sure how to change that without attempting to completely stop any kind of detox. My nightly Heart Rate Variability has tanked over the past 2 years, which supports the idea of autonomic nerve dysfunction. I was a serious athlete with nightly HRVs in the 120's and a resting heart rate in the 30's. Now I'm stuck with an HRV in the 50's and 60's and a RHR that fluctuates between 45 and 50. I've tried lifestyle changes, but they don't consistently move the needle. I've never seen any hard evidence of potassium channels getting "blocked" by Vitamin A, but at this point that would probably provide the best explanation for my experience. Taking more potassium does nothing...in fact, the more minerals and nutrients I take, the worse things seem to get. And taking potassium seems to cause almost instantaneous flushing sensations, which I now interpret as the potassium getting absorbed rapidly but not making it into the cells, and instead causing a dilation in my blood vessels and a corresponding drop in blood pressure until my kidneys get rid of it. (Sidenote: if dipSmith is on his banana binge trying to get more potassium, that's pretty fucking stupid)
I had the exact same thing (the hardcore twitches) when I was doing low carb. Nothing that I did made a difference (I tried for MONTHS) - not even adding potassium, or any minerals.
Within a couple days of stopping the keto/carnivore and adding carbs back, it stopped and never went back. If you have not tried this yet, please give it a go. I'm not 100% sure about the why, tho I believe it was the chronic low insulin causing massive electrolytes loss through the kidney
Quote from lil chick on December 14, 2022, 4:24 pmI think color of stool can often represent the pigments in food. Perhaps Jiri's stool was darker in Croatia eating meat because meat does have pigments. When I have chocolate my stools are darker.
It isn't the whole story though, obviously there is more to it.
I always eat meat. Yes you will have dark brown stool when you eat a lot of cocoa or even red when you eat a lot of beetroot etc.. But in general stool should be brown and should sink. If it's light color and it floats on the water it means there is a lot of undigested fat.. Which I have all the time. But in Croatia nice brown sinking stool.. 😀 What a mystery..
Thanks for the suggestion, but I've been on and off significant amounts of white rice since I started getting twitches, and the carbs do not stop them. What kind of carbs are you eating?
Paul Saladino has claimed that keto gave him cramps and electrolyte problems, and that reintroducing carbs fixed them, but I don't know if he's ever specified whether ALL forms of carbs stopped them, or just the fruit and honey that he's settled on. I'm curious if it's the fructose in particular that has stopped his muscle problems, and whether white rice or some other pure starch/glucose does the same for him, because it seems possible that if he's got Vitamin A problems from all the liver he's been eating, then the fructose consumption in particular might be preventing muscle problems by altering Vitamin A metabolism and slowing release into the bloodstream from the peripheral tissues.
I also find it weird that Paul started noticing these problems only after a significant amount of time had passed on keto/carnivore (a year I think?). The typical pattern is for it start immediately when adopting a keto diet (AKA the keto flu) because that's the adjustment period when your body is shifting its electrolyte balance via the kidneys...that should stabilize over time though. Bart Kay thinks Paul wasn't eating enough protein to spike his insulin in order to get potassium into the cells, which I highly doubt is the case...seems like there are a lot of other people who've been eating way higher fat ratios than Paul ever was and they don't have problems. Sally Norton finally came out and suggested that Paul might have been having oxalate dumping problems, which I find more plausible after his vegan stint, although I still think he probably would've noticed some nasty symptoms earlier than he did if that were the case. What nobody out there seems to be making a connection with is Vitamin A, except Anthony Chaffee who has suggested a vague connection based on Paul's liver consumption, but has not tried to find a particular mechanism (he sounds busy as hell with his medical work and YouTube interviews...can't blame him!).
Unfortunately, I have a history of both excessive oxalate consumption and Vitamin A consumption, so either of them could be to blame. I guess I could try eating a bunch of honey myself and see what happens...I had tried eating 1-2 teaspoons per day at times, but I don't think I ever got close to what Paul is chugging lol
So I feel it's either the gut/liver glucose sensors that are not working correctly, thus the insulin surge that you're suppose to have before glucose enter the duodenum is not triggered somehow. This would delay insulin release, thus the glucose spike. It does comes back down very quickly.
This or some form of pancreatic issues. At one time, I did all the T1D antibodies (all negativ) because of this, because I'm on the low weight side and the fact that I have low fecal elastase (severe Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency lvl) but no sign of EPI symptoms somehow. This is very strange to me.
I wonder if I have some form of issues there, thus overall a low insulin pattern (except after meals) so if I go to low on carbs, I loose too much K, thus the cramps/twitches. Did you try to use carbs + K supps at the same time ? Or highest natural K carbs like potatoes/bananas ?
Regarding vA, I did 1.5 year of low vA and noticed not a single improvment. I never took accutane, or did a heavy vA diet except a couple of month of liver eating (small amounts a couple of time per week) and 1-2 months of cod liver oil (1tsp per day, and I forgot often)
Regarding Oxalates, never had a big oxalate diet and I'm eating low/med ox for 2-3 years now so not sure it played a role for me.