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Labs/Tests

#91 · January 16, 2021, 9:30 am

Nice work @mmb3664 thanks for keeping us updated on the numbers! What would you says is your biggest progress in symptoms?

#92 · January 16, 2021, 1:05 pm

Quote from mmb3664 on January 16, 2021, 1:05 pm

Quote from Arena on January 16, 2021, 2:09 am

@mmb3664 this looks super promising, great work! I have had a similar spike (as you have July 2020) in my bloodwork if you look at my progress report. Let’s hope that measure is the «abnormal» one <3

Unfortunately, I do not think it works like that. From what I understand, lower levels of vA in the blood mean that removal of vA from the liver is slower. That slow down could happen for many reasons, with the best case scenario being that vA levels in the liver have reduced...the less vA there is in the liver, the slower the body will dump it.

Based on the trend, it could also be that my body is doing this detox in waves and slows down in the winter. That makes sense to me, as winter tends to be stressful (cold, minimal vitamin D production, "shorter" days, etc.). If the body is already stressed, why would it stress itself more with detox?

Quote from Orion on January 16, 2021, 9:30 am

Nice work @mmb3664 thanks for keeping us updated on the numbers! What would you says is your biggest progress in symptoms?

In general, I do not have any autoimmune or skin-related issues like a lot of people on the forum. I do, however, attribute a lot of my musculoskeletal issues to excess vA. I think the excess vA is causing calcium dysregulation, which leads to joint stiffness and pain, tight muscles, muscle spasms, etc. I feel like I made a lot of progress this past 6 months in terms of reduced stiffness in my body. It may sound weird, but I feel like my skeleton is shifting back to "normal" through this detox. I feel at least 5 years younger from a mobility standpoint than I did 2 years ago. I feel stronger and more stable when exercising. I feel lighter when walking and more limber in general. I no longer get a tight neck from sleeping the "wrong way" or a tight x because I did y. I am less injury prone, I guess. This seems like a small thing, but I feel a notable difference.

Quote from Arena on January 16, 2021, 2:09 am

@mmb3664 this looks super promising, great work! I have had a similar spike (as you have July 2020) in my bloodwork if you look at my progress report. Let’s hope that measure is the «abnormal» one <3

Unfortunately, I do not think it works like that. From what I understand, lower levels of vA in the blood mean that removal of vA from the liver is slower. That slow down could happen for many reasons, with the best case scenario being that vA levels in the liver have reduced...the less vA there is in the liver, the slower the body will dump it.

Based on the trend, it could also be that my body is doing this detox in waves and slows down in the winter. That makes sense to me, as winter tends to be stressful (cold, minimal vitamin D production, "shorter" days, etc.). If the body is already stressed, why would it stress itself more with detox?

Quote from Orion on January 16, 2021, 9:30 am

Nice work @mmb3664 thanks for keeping us updated on the numbers! What would you says is your biggest progress in symptoms?

In general, I do not have any autoimmune or skin-related issues like a lot of people on the forum. I do, however, attribute a lot of my musculoskeletal issues to excess vA. I think the excess vA is causing calcium dysregulation, which leads to joint stiffness and pain, tight muscles, muscle spasms, etc. I feel like I made a lot of progress this past 6 months in terms of reduced stiffness in my body. It may sound weird, but I feel like my skeleton is shifting back to "normal" through this detox. I feel at least 5 years younger from a mobility standpoint than I did 2 years ago. I feel stronger and more stable when exercising. I feel lighter when walking and more limber in general. I no longer get a tight neck from sleeping the "wrong way" or a tight x because I did y. I am less injury prone, I guess. This seems like a small thing, but I feel a notable difference.

#93 · January 16, 2021, 1:58 pm

Quote from mmb3664 on January 16, 2021, 1:05 pm

In general, I do not have any autoimmune or skin-related issues like a lot of people on the forum. I do, however, attribute a lot of my musculoskeletal issues to excess vA. I think the excess vA is causing calcium dysregulation, which leads to joint stiffness and pain, tight muscles, muscle spasms, etc. I feel like I made a lot of progress this past 6 months in terms of reduced stiffness in my body. It may sound weird, but I feel like my skeleton is shifting back to "normal" through this detox. I feel at least 5 years younger from a mobility standpoint than I did 2 years ago. I feel stronger and more stable when exercising. I feel lighter when walking and more limber in general. I no longer get a tight neck from sleeping the "wrong way" or a tight x because I did y. I am less injury prone, I guess. This seems like a small thing, but I feel a notable difference.

@mmb3664 What you wrote above is a perfect summary of what I feel like is happening to me as well, along with positive skin issue improvements. Old joint, lower back pain muscle issues, etc are slowly fading/healing, I am able to run and sprint, my body composition continues towards more muscular/lean, all trends in the right path.

Only issue I think may stay long term is hair shedding that began years before attempting low VA, my hopes is it stops and maybe reverses into some regrowth! but this is very questionable!

#94 · April 22, 2021, 4:59 am

Another update...I ended up getting more vA labs earlier this month since I was testing my zinc and copper levels anyway. My latest vA levels went back up, but still, the overall trend is down. The lab ranges are 18.9-57.3 ug/dL.

Date	Vitamin A (ug/dL)
Jan-19	59.4
Jul-19	57.7
Jan-20	43.0
Jul-20	57.0
Jan-21	38.8
Apr-21	53.6

I started this low vA diet in Feb 2019, so I have been at it for more than 2 years. Is anyone else doing regular vA testing seeing a similar trend in their blood work, i.e. up, down, up, down, but an overall downward trend?

I plan to test again in July, which is unnecessary, but I am curious and want to collect more data. Based on my previous tests, my blood levels should still be higher in the range during the summer, but my hope is that it will be lower than my current April levels. We shall see!

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#95 · January 7, 2022, 2:08 pm

Quote from mmb3664 on January 7, 2022, 2:08 pm
I have been way behind on updating blood labs here. I plan to get another vA test at the end of this month and will hopefully remember to update that here in February.

Date Vitamin A (ug/dL)

Jan-19 59.4

Jul-19 57.7

Jan-20 43.0

Jul-20 57.0

Jan-21 38.8

Apr-21 53.6

Jul-21 42.2

Oct-21 64.2

One main thing I want to mention is that, in April of 2020, I discovered that a lot of the musculoskeletal issues, joint stiffness/pain, intense muscle spasms, etc. that I originally attributed to high vA was more likely due to high oxalate intakes. Once I figured this out, it has been a game changer. I never noticed feeling better or worse depending on my blood levels of vA based on my labs, but I noticed a direct correlation with my consumption of high oxalate foods like black beans, chocolate, pomegranate, black tea, etc.

Since I am approaching the 3 year mark of my low vA journey, I have definitely relaxed on lowering my vA intake. I eat eggs and butter, but am still limiting those higher vA foods (2 eggs a day max, maybe 1-2 times a week, 1 tbsp of butter max per day, but not every day). I still avoid high beta carotene foods like the plague with no hesitation, mainly because I do not like the taste of a lot of those foods anyway.

Also, just for anyone who is curious, I do work with Dr. Smith and have been taking the supplements he recommended for me based on my hair test. This includes oral zinc, molybdenum, and selenium and topical magnesium. The only other supplements I take/took are the lactoferrin he recommends and potassium chloride (I am currently experimenting with this). I did 3 months/bottles of the lactoferrin with no intent of getting back on it. I felt no different using it...no better or worse.

Finally, the only remaining symptoms that I have are bad headaches from time to time and constipation. I think the headaches are due to electrolyte imbalances and hydration issues. Dr. Smith has recommended things to deal with the constipation, but nothing seems to resolve it aside from taking something that has a laxative effect like high doses of oral magnesium or potassium. I have tried so many things to remedy the problem, but nothing works long term. :/

I have been way behind on updating blood labs here. I plan to get another vA test at the end of this month and will hopefully remember to update that here in February.

Date	Vitamin A (ug/dL)
Jan-19	59.4
Jul-19	57.7
Jan-20	43.0
Jul-20	57.0
Jan-21	38.8
Apr-21	53.6
Jul-21	42.2
Oct-21	64.2

One main thing I want to mention is that, in April of 2020, I discovered that a lot of the musculoskeletal issues, joint stiffness/pain, intense muscle spasms, etc. that I originally attributed to high vA was more likely due to high oxalate intakes. Once I figured this out, it has been a game changer. I never noticed feeling better or worse depending on my blood levels of vA based on my labs, but I noticed a direct correlation with my consumption of high oxalate foods like black beans, chocolate, pomegranate, black tea, etc.

Since I am approaching the 3 year mark of my low vA journey, I have definitely relaxed on lowering my vA intake. I eat eggs and butter, but am still limiting those higher vA foods (2 eggs a day max, maybe 1-2 times a week, 1 tbsp of butter max per day, but not every day). I still avoid high beta carotene foods like the plague with no hesitation, mainly because I do not like the taste of a lot of those foods anyway.

Also, just for anyone who is curious, I do work with Dr. Smith and have been taking the supplements he recommended for me based on my hair test. This includes oral zinc, molybdenum, and selenium and topical magnesium. The only other supplements I take/took are the lactoferrin he recommends and potassium chloride (I am currently experimenting with this). I did 3 months/bottles of the lactoferrin with no intent of getting back on it. I felt no different using it...no better or worse.

Finally, the only remaining symptoms that I have are bad headaches from time to time and constipation. I think the headaches are due to electrolyte imbalances and hydration issues. Dr. Smith has recommended things to deal with the constipation, but nothing seems to resolve it aside from taking something that has a laxative effect like high doses of oral magnesium or potassium. I have tried so many things to remedy the problem, but nothing works long term. :/

#96 · January 7, 2022, 8:57 pm

@mmb3664 constipation can be simply due to not eating enough.. So the body slows down transit time so it can absorp more nutrients and/or it can be from slower metabolism due to that lower food intake or due to some other reasons?

#97 · January 8, 2022, 8:16 am

Quote from mmb3664 on January 8, 2022, 8:16 am
@jiri I do not think my constipation is related to food intake, whether that be in terms of volume or calories. Obviously, if I did an 18-24 hour fast, that would reduce the likelihood of having a bowel movement the next day, but I have tried increasing volume (carbs) of food and calories without improvement. I also tried higher fat, lower fat, more fiber, less fiber, b vitamins, hydrating more, more salt, less salt, etc. I am an active 5'2" female weighing about 110 lbs and consume an average of 2,000 calories a day. My activity is daily strength training (powerlifting or kettlebells) with exercise being roughly an hour including rest periods and a 10-15 minute low intensity mobility/warm-up sequence. If I am hungry, I eat more. If I am not hungry, I eat less. I do not purposefully restrict food/calories.

@are I did not realize anyone was waiting on my results...sorry about that! I will make sure to post my results from this month within a few days of receiving them. Regarding your question, I am not too worried about the increase in blood levels, mainly for these reasons:

The blood levels have been all over the place from the beginning...it kind of reminds me of the stock market or bodyweight fluctuations. If you take any one value from the data at face value, you can really misinterpret what is happening, especially long term. Obviously, if my values continue to increase over the next year, I will have some kind of intervention if Dr. Smith agrees that it probably indicates halted or slowed progress.

I can't explain the reason for the fluctuations, as there can be a lot of factors that drive the peaks and dips; my change in diet and lab error are only two of them. I also can't be sure if the higher values might indicate something good (like my body's rate of vA removal, where more vA in the blood means faster rate of detox). I would like to believe that, as the liver gets healthier, it may be possible to work harder at removing toxins, so the rate of detox can increase. This is the best case scenario and what I am hoping for, but again, if my values continue to increase consistently, I will have some kind of intervention if Dr. Smith agrees that it probably indicates halted or slowed progress. Based on my consultation with Dr. Smith, he agreed that eating some butter and a few eggs here and there, despite that he does not recommend it, would not cause that drastic of a spike in blood vA levels.

I plan on sticking with a low vA diet long term and tracking my blood levels during the process. Although I have relaxed on lowering my vA intake, I am definitely not consuming anywhere near the amounts that I used to, nor do I plan to ever do that again. I am still well below the RDA and, although it will take longer to deplete my vA levels (say 8 years instead of 4 or 5), I am okay with that. As I mentioned, I no longer believe my main symptoms are or ever were caused by high vA levels, so I am not suffering by having the process take a bit longer.

My goal is not to get to zero vA in the blood like Grant and I know he doesn't advise that anyone make that their goal. I am fine with my blood levels dropping down between 20 and 30 ug/dL, which I believe is achievable with my current vA intake over the long term.

Based on my previous results, I suspect this month's vA levels will drop back down, which seems to be the trend in the winter. I am curious to see what happens.

@jiri I do not think my constipation is related to food intake, whether that be in terms of volume or calories. Obviously, if I did an 18-24 hour fast, that would reduce the likelihood of having a bowel movement the next day, but I have tried increasing volume (carbs) of food and calories without improvement. I also tried higher fat, lower fat, more fiber, less fiber, b vitamins, hydrating more, more salt, less salt, etc. I am an active 5'2" female weighing about 110 lbs and consume an average of 2,000 calories a day. My activity is daily strength training (powerlifting or kettlebells) with exercise being roughly an hour including rest periods and a 10-15 minute low intensity mobility/warm-up sequence. If I am hungry, I eat more. If I am not hungry, I eat less. I do not purposefully restrict food/calories.

@are I did not realize anyone was waiting on my results...sorry about that! I will make sure to post my results from this month within a few days of receiving them. Regarding your question, I am not too worried about the increase in blood levels, mainly for these reasons:

The blood levels have been all over the place from the beginning...it kind of reminds me of the stock market or bodyweight fluctuations. If you take any one value from the data at face value, you can really misinterpret what is happening, especially long term. Obviously, if my values continue to increase over the next year, I will have some kind of intervention if Dr. Smith agrees that it probably indicates halted or slowed progress.
I can't explain the reason for the fluctuations, as there can be a lot of factors that drive the peaks and dips; my change in diet and lab error are only two of them. I also can't be sure if the higher values might indicate something good (like my body's rate of vA removal, where more vA in the blood means faster rate of detox). I would like to believe that, as the liver gets healthier, it may be possible to work harder at removing toxins, so the rate of detox can increase. This is the best case scenario and what I am hoping for, but again, if my values continue to increase consistently, I will have some kind of intervention if Dr. Smith agrees that it probably indicates halted or slowed progress. Based on my consultation with Dr. Smith, he agreed that eating some butter and a few eggs here and there, despite that he does not recommend it, would not cause that drastic of a spike in blood vA levels.
I plan on sticking with a low vA diet long term and tracking my blood levels during the process. Although I have relaxed on lowering my vA intake, I am definitely not consuming anywhere near the amounts that I used to, nor do I plan to ever do that again. I am still well below the RDA and, although it will take longer to deplete my vA levels (say 8 years instead of 4 or 5), I am okay with that. As I mentioned, I no longer believe my main symptoms are or ever were caused by high vA levels, so I am not suffering by having the process take a bit longer.
My goal is not to get to zero vA in the blood like Grant and I know he doesn't advise that anyone make that their goal. I am fine with my blood levels dropping down between 20 and 30 ug/dL, which I believe is achievable with my current vA intake over the long term.

Based on my previous results, I suspect this month's vA levels will drop back down, which seems to be the trend in the winter. I am curious to see what happens.

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#98 · January 12, 2022, 10:58 am

@mmb3664,

Since you have a good low PTH, and have been following Garrett's advice, what are the major Positives that you have seen being on Low VA diet.

Chris

#99 · January 12, 2022, 3:47 pm

@chris13 The main reason why I started a low vA diet was due to tight muscles, muscle cramping, muscle spasms, tight joints, and constantly injuring myself due to these things. As I mentioned, I like to lift, but I would get hurt like every 3-6 months to the point of needing to stop exercising for a month or longer. I thought it was due to high blood levels of vA and its affect on calcium regulation, but all of my issues went away once I stopped consuming high oxalate foods. I can't really claim a low vA diet alleviated my main symptoms.

If I am being honest, nothing immediately comes to mind when I try to think of positives seen from being on a low vA diet. I think that, in these past three years overall, I have learned a lot more about my body and, based on my hair tests, dumped some unwanted stuff out of my body (calcium, copper, cobalt, uranium, and aluminum). Not sure how much can be attributed to low vA. My blood levels are also still pretty high though, as you saw in my previous posts. Maybe I just haven't seen any benefits because I am still saturated with vA.

Sorry if that is a dissatisfying or demotivating answer.

#100 · January 29, 2022, 8:20 am

As promised, my latest vA labs. There is definitely an overall downward trend for blood levels of vA, but again, there are quite a few ups and downs along the way.

Date	Vitamin A (ug/dL)
Jan-19	59.4
Jul-19	57.7
Jan-20	43.0
Jul-20	57.0
Jan-21	38.8
Apr-21	53.6
Jul-21	42.2
Oct-21	64.2
Jan-22	37.3

I have a consultation with Dr. Smith in a few days. One interesting pattern I am seeing from my hair and blood tests is that, whenever I have dips in measured blood levels of vA, the aluminum on my hair test spikes. Don't know if this is my body preferentially dumping one toxin over another, but I noticed that correlation in the data.

I plan to continue getting blood labs every 3 months, mainly to track copper and zinc. I usually throw the vA labs on the requisition as well since the test is not super expensive. I like data. 🙂

Despite that I will likely test vA again in April, I do not plan to post any update until my July blood tests.

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