Quote from Jiří on January 4, 2025, 2:59 am

@lil-chick

"I seriously don't know why people like supplements at all"

Because when you create huge mineral/metal disbalance in your body by stupid life choices, genetics, toxin exposure whatever for decades you can't fix it in reasonable time period with just food.. I really do believe that micronutrient balance is the key to everything related to health. I can imagine if we had the system where you can plug your body to some machine that is constantly monitoring what your body needs and and replenishes it in real time(like we can do for blood glucose now) we would never crash with chronic fatigue, toxicity of any kind etc.. But we don't have that and so we have no idea what is going on in our body and what we need and what we have in excess.. But people want to be healthy and not just control symptoms with drugs so we are learning slowly.. For not it is just hit and miss for a most part. Some people are lucky and they take or eat diet that has exactly what their body needs. But most people don't have that luck. Like me trying every single stupid diet there is making myself more and more toxic. But with this copper stuff we now know that most of us really don't need much of it and if they have symptoms of deficiency and their diet is high in copper it is most likely toxicity not deficiency and like the guy creating this protocol said all micronutrients effect each other. They are going constantly up or down depending on ratios between them. So when you are taking random supplement and not everything in some balance it will make you only worse.. Maybe the guy found perfect balance and mix of stuff FOR HIS body, but I don't think it will work for everyone. Because they have completely different genetics, life style, diet and therefore micronutrient needs.. Nobody can tell me that 50kg Japan girl working in the office needs exactly the same protocol of stuff as 110kg Russian guy working as lumberjack.. That is just insane thinking..

Quote from Janelle525 on January 5, 2025, 10:03 am

Quote from Moebius on January 3, 2025, 10:56 pm

Quote from Janelle525 on January 3, 2025, 1:04 pm

Tried the bean protocol, ended up with dry eyes and heavy periods. Many others have the dry eyes as well. I see he lists B6 deficiency for that, but I will never try B6 by itself, and I don't want to go back to eating a bunch of bananas which were causing me to be very sluggish. 

Instead of bananas, could you try wheat and oats to go along with your beans?  I suggest wheat in the form of bulgur wheat or couscous, so there is no fortifications or other tampering with the wheat.  Wheat and oats have B6.  Also, have you tried a wide variety of beans?  I met a pastor in Africa who developed an allergy to beans, but he could still eat peas.  So I had him try lentils, and he tolerated the lentils without problem.

I eat pasta every morning. I don't do well on oats though. I tend to eat only black beans. I am gong to test my theory and eat a bunch of bananas this week before I get my supps in the mail.  

Quote from Janelle525 on January 5, 2025, 10:05 am

Quote from Jiří on January 4, 2025, 1:07 am

@janelle525 I don't think that some beans lets say 1 can is a problem. It is like 800mg of copper. The problem is when you eat vegan diet and you eat nothing but copper high diet like nuts, seeds, grains, legumes all the time.. If you eat mainly meat, white rice, some fruit and with it like 1 can of beans it is ok I think.. You will have issues with copper mainly because you are female and you are probably estrogen dominant.. So I would keep red meat in your diet. Plenty of protein, zinc, B vitamins. I would take some extra molybdenum and vit C for sure.. Also don't forget that iodine is essential for detoxing excess of estrogen and also stuff like mercury and high mercury is also resulting in copper toxicity..

Yes I think the fact that I eat red meat twice a day has been very helpful, but I still got the heavy periods. But at the same time I was reducing vitamin c when I added beans to my diet. I had basically recovered from panic disorder using vitamin C so I guess I still need it.

Quote from Arios on January 5, 2025, 1:25 pm

Quote from Janelle525 on January 5, 2025, 10:05 am

Quote from Jiří on January 4, 2025, 1:07 am

@janelle525 I don't think that some beans lets say 1 can is a problem. It is like 800mg of copper. The problem is when you eat vegan diet and you eat nothing but copper high diet like nuts, seeds, grains, legumes all the time.. If you eat mainly meat, white rice, some fruit and with it like 1 can of beans it is ok I think.. You will have issues with copper mainly because you are female and you are probably estrogen dominant.. So I would keep red meat in your diet. Plenty of protein, zinc, B vitamins. I would take some extra molybdenum and vit C for sure.. Also don't forget that iodine is essential for detoxing excess of estrogen and also stuff like mercury and high mercury is also resulting in copper toxicity..

Yes I think the fact that I eat red meat twice a day has been very helpful, but I still got the heavy periods. But at the same time I was reducing vitamin c when I added beans to my diet. I had basically recovered from panic disorder using vitamin C so I guess I still need it.

Perhaps its the high nickel content of the beans is the trigger of your "heavy periods" . Ni is a endocrine disruptor and deplete vitamin C via direct Interaction: There's evidence that nickel can directly interact with vitamin C, potentially forming complexes that reduce its bioavailability or effectiveness. This interaction has been explored in the context of nickel carcinogenesis, where nickel depletes intracellular ascorbate, leading to inhibition of cellular hydroxylases but also via inhibition of Vitamin C Transport: Nickel might interfere with the transport of vitamin C into cells, reducing its availability. In some research, nickel was found to decrease the activity of sodium-dependent vitamin C transporters, which are crucial for vitamin C uptake. and Nickel might also interfere with the transport of vitamin C into cells, reducing its availability.

Quote from Jiří on January 5, 2025, 2:14 pm

@arios I don't think it is nickel toxicity, but simply estrogen dominance.. Today even a lot of males have it let alone females..

Quote from Jiří on February 9, 2025, 3:50 am

..

Quote from To on February 26, 2025, 3:34 am

Thanks for sharing @jiri. Reading the entire 100 page thread over at the toxin forum feels daunting so appriciate you putting together some choice bits.  Looking forward to your writeup on the topic.

FYI Heisenberg was intervied by Elwin Robinson yesterday.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20h3vZDi-nI

I tried to use Grok3 to summarize Heisenbergs protocol. Might not be 100% accurate, LLMs sometimes halucinate.

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Here’s a concise summary of the entire thread from lowtoxinforum.com, titled "This guy says he has found the holy grail on how to remove excess copper iron," based on the provided document (HG7 Protocol by @T_R_Heisenberg) and my prior analyses. This aims for maximum clarity, stripping away extraneous details while preserving the core ideas, protocol, experiences, and implications.

---

Core Concept

What: The HG7 Protocol, developed by @T_R_Heisenberg, is a detox method to remove excess copper and iron from body tissues, which he believes accumulate due to modern lifestyles (sedentary habits, fortified foods, pesticides) and block zinc storage. This imbalance causes physical decline (e.g., fatigue, hormonal issues), mental instability (e.g., depression, anger), and even spiritual erosion (e.g., selfishness).

Goal: Extract copper and iron, excrete them via bile (iron) and urine (copper), and restore zinc to heal DNA, hormones, and vitality—potentially reversing aging and enhancing well-being.

---

The Protocol

How It Works:

1. Pull: Vitamin B6 (100mg) draws copper and iron from tissues into the blood.
2. Chelate:
   • EGCG (750-1200mg) binds iron, removing it via bile ducts, freeing copper.
   • Molybdenum (2.5-3mg) uses uric acid to flush this copper into urine.
3. Support: Vitamin C (2-4g) mobilizes metals, while B5 (300mg) and biotin (300mg) aid B6 and tissue repair.
4. Restore: Zinc (100mg) refills storage sites, reversing damage.

Rules: Take all after a meal. Start with EGCG unless nauseous, then vitamins/molybdenum/zinc first. Use basic forms (e.g., pyridoxine HCl, ascorbic acid only—no rutin). Don’t skip components unless calibrating, or you’ll get sick.

 

Symptom Checker: Adjust doses based on:

• Pale lips, anger: More molybdenum (1.5mg).
• Reddish lips, depression: More zinc (50mg) + molybdenum (1mg).
• Headache, bloating: More EGCG (600mg) + molybdenum (1mg).
• Emotions: Depression (low B6/zinc), anxiety (low biotin/molybdenum), anger (low B5/C/molybdenum), apathy (low EGCG/zinc).
• Stool: Floating (low B6), bulky (low EGCG/biotin), light (low zinc/C), tarry (low molybdenum).
• Gag Reflex: If it triggers vomiting, skip that nutrient for now.

---

Key Theory

Why:

• Evolutionary Mismatch: Humans evolved to bleed often (hunting), naturally shedding iron and copper. Today, we hoard them, depleting zinc.
• Toxicity Cycle: Excess copper binds iron, oxidizing in tissues, hiding from blood tests. This mimics deficiencies, disrupts hormones, and "rusts" organs.
• Solution: Chelate both metals, replenish zinc, and break the cycle—potentially unlocking youth via DNA repair (telomerase boost from EGCG).

---

User Experiences

Limited Data:

• T_R_Heisenberg: Claims it fixed his bipolar disorder and transformed him (stronger, masculine) and his girlfriend (feminine, stable) after 10 years of trial-and-error. No B6 toxicity with formula balanced.
• Anonymous User: Reported stomach upset, jitteriness, possible gastritis—highlighting calibration risks.
• Others: Concerns (not direct experiences) include high EGCG risking liver damage (Tarmander), synthetic C shutting bile (Hidden49), and excessive B6 (Peater). Three Twitter users got sick adding extras (e.g., NAC).

Pros: Life-changing for some (e.g., bipolar fix, vitality).
Cons: Nausea, sickness if miscalibrated; unproven risks (e.g., kidney stones, overload).

---

Practical Details

• Sources: EGCG from Nootropics Depot recommended; avoid NOW brand. Zinc as gluconate, not picolinate. Vitamin C pure, no fillers.
• Dosing: High but balanced to avoid toxicity (e.g., B6 safe with B5/biotin).
• Warnings: Don’t tweak without expertise—imbalance causes havoc (e.g., adrenal shutdown, iron overload).

---

Broader Implications

• Health: May reverse chronic fatigue (men), emotional instability (women), and aging signs (theory only).
• Controversy: Lacks scientific backing; relies on personal experimentation. High doses and risks (e.g., liver damage) debated in Ray Peat community.
• Vision: T_R_Heisenberg sees it as a "fountain of youth" (HG7), restoring peak physical/mental states, but anonymity suggests caution or skepticism.

---

Clarity Snapshot

In One Sentence: The HG7 Protocol uses EGCG, molybdenum, zinc, and vitamins to detox copper and iron, restore zinc, and potentially rejuvenate the body, based on a theory of modern mineral overload, but requires precise calibration to avoid sickness.
Bottom Line: Promising for some, risky without care—experimental, not proven.

---

This summary condenses the thread’s 111+ pages and the HG7 document into a clear, actionable overview, addressing theory, execution, experiences, and stakes as of February 26, 2025.

Quote from Jiří on February 27, 2025, 4:44 am

@to what I don't understand why the guy says that EGCG chelates only iron when everywhere you look you read that EGCG can chelate almost all metals even zinc, copper, heavy metals like lead etc.. He says a lot of weird stuff that is not based on any evidence just "I fell like it does this" Which can be pretty misleading I think. Not to mention like I said he never did hair tissue. He is probably loaded with metals from all the smoking etc.. We didn't saw from him even basic blood tests like for iron, copper to confirm this "see here you can see high free copper because I was taking all that EGCG without molybdenum and here you can se how it dropped when I started with molybdenum" etc.. Not to mention how is he still detoxing when he is taking all those big doses of everything for so long? Something weird like I said about it.. But because his protocol is somewhat close to Gbolduev and his "electrolyte protocol" I will try EGCG and will see what happens.. But I really don't see the need for high doses of everything.  

Quote from whatisaging on March 2, 2025, 8:36 pm

Quote from Jiří on February 9, 2025, 3:50 am

I will copy it here as well for me and others who are interesting in it. I think that I will look more and more into it. But if I do it I need to do it with blood tests of iron, copper, feritin, ceruloplasmin etc. to see what is going on not just guess. Like Dr.Smiths says "we test we don't just guess" and I can't agree more with that..

This is a list of some of @T_R_Heisenberg 's theory posts. I was getting sick of searching, so I decided to just put all the links in one place.

This is kind of long, sorry for the obnoxious post. I'm getting ready to write a couple of theory posts myself, so I wanted this prepared.

charlie said:

[...]The purpose of this detox is to simultaneously pull copper and iron from the tissues into the blood, while also keeping a constant chelation balance of them from the blood into the bile ducts and urine, and finally taking the right amount or zinc to replenish the empty stores you just removed copper and iron from.

 

[...]Molybdenum, while appearing excessive in this formula, is necessary because when you chelate iron, you are not chelating copper, but rather making it "bioavailable" again. And this newly freed copper will send the body into adrenal shutdown because EGCG chelates iron very potently, thus activating large amounts of copper. Under normal circumstances, you wouldn't have so much free copper in the blood for the need to ever take so much molybdenum, but in this case, you need a lot of it to produce enough uric acid to pull all that newly freed copper into the urine for excretion.

[...]If EGCG is not taken, the iron bound copper won't excrete, and if molybdenum is not taken, the copper will wreak havoc on your body in search of new free iron, making you appear totally anemic.

 

T_R_Heisenberg said:

I also read a reply that EGCG is toxic at this level, and you would be absolutely right, except this formula removes the copper that EGCG ultimately surfaces by removing iron.

 

It's absolutely necessary, or the other pieces of the formula will attempt to push copper out that's bound to iron, which will not only not work, but make you sick.

 

T_R_Heisenberg said:

This is because our bodies are so iron toxic that copper supplementation temporarily helps, but then you go anemic and need more iron, then need more copper. It's an endless cycle until your body is completely unable to store zinc and you just shut down.

 

Egcg removes the iron, and activates copper, this is why egcg is called an antioxidant. Copper, when bound to iron, oxidizes and can't be used properly.

It's true, you need copper, but you have plenty of it in the tissues hidden from any sort of blood test.

T_R_Heisenberg said:

So I understand your concerns with Vitamin C. I've taken many forms of it. And under normal circumstances, regular vitamin C ascorbic acid at this dosage sounds like a stomach issue waiting to happen. But I promise, with this formula, you need that.

 

I also discovered, the hard way, that if the Vitamin C contains Rutin, or another antioxidant, it will bind to copper in a way that makes this formula really difficult to balance. When rutin is bound to the copper, at least the theory is, it makes the iron it was once bound to free, and this causes issues...

This formula is supposed to remove copper and iron in a balanced way, but if copper is chelated too heavily with rutin, you send yourself into iron overload way too quickly making this formula really really difficult.

 

T_R_Heisenberg said:

And you are ignoring the premise that we are all extremely iron and copper toxic through a generation of sedentary lifestyle.

 

The body evolved to store these two minerals as much as possible because we used to bleed like crazy during hunting.

Your body doesn't just excrete all the copper it takes in from pesticides, or chemtrails, or vaccines, it merely tricks the body into consuming more iron to compensate, and slowly, over time, your zinc stores dwindle because iron is blocking them.

And you become reliant on copper and iron supplements because it keeps oxidizing so fast in the body and storing somewhere else

Until you eventually just die.

The telomeres are unable to remain in tact because your zinc is so poorly utilized your body isn't able to produce enzymes anymore and balance hormones.

And you literally die from rust. Nobody dies of "old age" you die from organ failure... because of this "rust".

Again, try it, and you'll believe.

 

T_R_Heisenberg said:

Though, in this case, I think he simply took too much egcg the first time. It's not uncommon to be very high copper low iron balance when this starts, and if that's the case taking too much egcg will aggravate it.

 

The formula without egcg is the portion that really removes free copper.

Egcg creates more free copper to remove by binding the iron bound to it and removing it.

It can go so quick balancing either way. One minute you are low iron balance, then after taking the formula even once without egcg, you will switch to a high iron balance from the depletion of copper, and egcg will be needed eventually again usually by the following dose.

 

T_R_Heisenberg said:

I can only theorize based on everything I've both observed and read, but the theory is that we evolved to bleed a lot. Hunting and gathering our food.

 

Iron never used to be so prevalent in nature to the point where we were fortifying our grains with it in our childhood cereals, and promoting it as some strength booster in games like pokemon tricking kids into thinking high iron foods were strength boosting, but that's a conspiracy for another day.

The point is its abundant in our diet, and were no longer bleeding for our food. And have you noticed those in professions where it's pretty normal to bleed just naturally seem healthier?

This is because I believe our bodies evolved specifically NOT to excrete extra iron, but rather it uses copper to sort of bind together and oxidize away in the tissues, hidden from the blood so as not to disturb it. The ions in copper bind to iron to make it storable in the zinc storage sites, I believe.

So, because the blood only recognizes when there is an imbalance of copper and iron, versus the levels of the two bound together hidden away in the tissues, the body will always behave deficient in the other if one is too high.

Those who take copper will appear iron deficient eventually, and vise versa.

And all the experts advice is always a balancing of the two by taking the other. The problem is, as these two bind together, your zinc storages dwindle to nothing eventually.

And taking zinc does nothing because the iron mountain is far heavier in molecular weight, so it doesn't sweat out the way zinc easily does.

And you begin to shut down from this mountain of rust you've collected because your body thinks at some point it's going to bleed because you need to hunt for your food. But you never do. And you just die.

So this theory, rather than balancing the two mountains of iron and copper by adding more of the other, of which your blood only sees the peaks, my theory is to shave the former so the other reveals itself. And then repeat the shaving of both sides while simultaneously taking zinc to restore the dwindled mountain of zinc you should have.

As the zinc mountain grows, your body begins to rejuvenate, heal, grow, and even, in theory, reverse your physical age to your peak, which for men is mid 30s.

I am theorizing this because there was a study that EGCG had the capability to increase telomerase production. If you've studied the telomere theories, then that basically means EGCG has the capability to restore your DNAs ability to divide cells in a healthy manner. Thus... indefinite youth.

That's only theory though, because nobody can ever take enough EGCG to really test that... until now. My formula allows you to take tons of it.

Also, coincidence that EGCG helps produce telomerase, AND is a potent iron chelator? I don't believe in coincedences.

So long as your zinc is brought back up in balance with the copper and iron you deplete, and the vitamins and mineral ratios are adhered to, this formula, theoretically, is the fountain of youth.

Why do you think I want to remain anonymous?

T_R_Heisenberg said:

This is also why I suspect men experience more chronic fatigue these days, and women experience more... please forgive me, emotional imbalance and psychopathy.

 

We're both in taking large amounts of copper and iron in our diets because everything is either fortified with it, or it's in the pesticides or chemicals we ingest daily without even knowing. Our food handling in factories, water pipes, everything leeches copper into it.

Women menstruate. So they lose a lot of iron that way, but the copper sticks. So they're in a constant state of copper toxicity. That's why women show low blood iron a lot. And all thst copper is making their emotions and brain haywire in search of something to bind to to oxidize. It's a very negative effect for a mineral with a positive ion.

Where as men are just so toxic in both they're worn out. Their blood is heavy. Their zinc that should be producing tons of testosterone can't work and they become feminine and grow breasts and lose their hair and get super super emotional.

It's a wicked spiral. And I was going that direction too.

This formula has reversed it. And it made my girlfriend far more feminine and also completely emotionally stable and even made her quite charming. It's so fascinating to see a woman become more feminine. It's like a mirror of what's happening to me.

She's softer. Sweeter. Voice cuter and gentler. Skin soft and clear. Less body hair, smaller bone structure.

Where I get denser and larger and tougher and stronger. She gets more and more beautiful and her eyes bigger and shinier with hands getting smaller and petite. She says she's never felt better in her life.

 

T_R_Heisenberg said:

I can only state this as a theory as I don't have the greatest grasp on "scientific knowledge" on the mechanisms of the blood by any means. I have my speculations but the following, as are all my statements, just a theory.

 

But I believe while you do lose a fair amount of iron from bloodletting, I don't believe it helps with removing tissue copper.

I believe that the body is smart and knows how to pull iron that's bound to copper when it actually needs it for blood.

However, this causes your copper to become free again to search for more free non blood bound iron to bind to, making you appear anemic.

This is why I suspect many women appear anemic from menstruation. They're losing iron, but not copper. If copper was being depleted with the iron, I don't think women would appear so anemic because the iron they would get from our modern diets should be plenty.

So the only thing blood letting would substitute, and I'm not even sure it would be that good of a substitute, would simply be for the egcg portion of this detox.

T_R_Heisenberg said:

Egcg is an iron binder.

 

I wouldn't recommend adding anything to this formula to be honest, everyone that tries keeps screwing it up.

3 people all kept insisting to me on twitter that they add their own regime, and it backfired every time.

One guy tried throwing NAC and some other antioxidants into the mix and got really sick.

Please please please do not take other supplements while on this stack unless you know exactly what you are doing.

Charlie was able to add lectoferrin because it substituted a little egcg with it since they operate similarly, i think.

But adding to this formula creates the possibility of over chelating iron, or even copper in an imbalanced way.

I have been doing this with for 10 years, and I promise you, you will do more harm than good by trying to add to this.

The only thing I would consider adding is the other b vitamins 1-3, but I never ever felt the need for them. They feel like unnecessary fluff.

IP6 is another that I think you might be able to strategically add for intermediate chelation of what's actually in the blood, but this will only further your needs for the formula anyway causing you to have to increase the dosages.

Unlike EGCG, I've noticed IP6 is much more of a sort of blood cleaner. While egcg is able to chelate tissue iron, ip6 only addresses Unbound iron in the blood, at least that's what I suspect based on how I feel when I take it. So extra ip6 may not cause excessive imbalance.

But again, I cannot in confidence approve of adding anything to the current formula because of what I suffered through when I would try. 10mm kidney stones are NOT fun.

 

T_R_Heisenberg said:

I literally induced bi Polar Disorder by chelating so much iron with egcg and not removing copper because I hadn't figured molybdenum out yet.

 

T_R_Heisenberg said:

I am one of those people that has a ton of bound copper in my body that makes my vitamin C impossible to calibrate. When your copper is bound by some binder like Rutin or NAC, it makes your vitamin C sort of forcibly remove that bound copper even if iron isnt removed yet.

 

Under normal circumstances, EGCG is supposed to be the driver in how much this formula can handle on intaking and utilizating just about everything else. The vitamins are water soluble and would normally just not activate and pee out, and the minerals would sweat out or youd throw up.

But because i have SO MUCH rutin bound copper, taking even the slightest bit too much vitamin C sends me into iron overload so fast i vomit every time.

 

T_R_Heisenberg said:

This is the hardest point that seems to be difficult for many to really take in, but my formula and theory is not to state: Copper = Bad.

 

My theory is based upon the fact that I believe we have WAY too much of it hidden in our tissues.

The reason I demand everyone use B6 in its pre active form, pyrodoxine hcl, instead of p5p, is because like any other B vitamin it is water soluble and we don't use what we don't need, which is a good thing..

So many people struggle with regular b6 because they DO need it, not because they don't.

And they need it because it's almost a direct antagonist to copper. It pulls copper from the tissues into the blood.

And people need that because this is how you recycle old copper instead of having to take in new.

However, it makes people sick on its own because your body needed it so much that it used almost all of it, but most people don't take it with the proper amount of "coenzymators" biotin, and b5.

So when people take b6 alone, they go biotin deficient rather quick and don't even realize it.

When you pull all that copper into the blood, it stimulates your tissues regeneration cycles, at least I believe. Copper is a stimulant after all. And tissue regeneration and growth, i.e. nails and hair, require biotin to do the job. So this is why I suspect copper detoxing uses a TON of Biotin.

And biotin uses B5 in sync in the body, take one, the other depletes eventually.

Now, this still isn't enough. B6 will pull iron bound copper into the blood too, and the body can't excrete iron bound copper on its own, because the body thinks it's needed for blood later, so it wants to store it again.

Iron bound copper is basically unusable copper. And nearly undetectable in the body, certainly hidden from standard blood tests. It's in the tissues, not the blood.

This is where EGCG comes into play, EGCG binds to that iron, and removes it from the copper.

And it doesn't take much EGCG to reveal tons of once bound copper. This is why taking EGCG on its own is destructive, because it only chelates the iron, the copper remains in the body in search of new unbound iron to bind to and store.

And THAT is why you need so much molybdenum and vitamin C. The amount of copper you free up is too much for your blood to handle, and it triggers anemia, a false low iron signal, so that you consume more iron for the copper to bind to.

The molybdenum/C removes that newly freed copper and zinc then is free to replenish the storage sites B6 removed everything from.

At a certain point, b6 will have no toxic excess stored copper and iron to pull from, and EGCG doesn't chelate bloodbound iron, so eventually, when this formula is done, it simply won't do anything at all, and the minerals will have no place in the body triggering you to gag every time you try to swallow any of them.

T_R_Heisenberg said:

Copper, I am theorizing, mostly excretes in the urine with the molybdenum.

 

Iron, I am guessing, excretes in feces mostly through the bile ducts.

I actually know much less about the actual exit pathways as I've never measured my stool for metal content.. don't want to.

 

T_R_Heisenberg said:

Again, as you said, this is my theory, but when you take egcg, you free up a lot of copper in the tissues since egcg breaks the blood brain barrier.

 

The b6 then pulls that free copper into the blood using biotin to coenzymate and thus depleting b5 since biotin and b5 are used synergyistically.

 

T_R_Heisenberg said:

I just remembered you may be one of the unlucky ones who tried to chelate copper and didn't do it right..

 

If that's the case, you may find you'll have better results with less vitamin C.

Under normal circumstances C isn't supposed to push copper to be excreted if you haven't chelated the iron first with egcg, the two sort of negate C from working when they're bound together...

EGCG drives this process for most.. but if you've attempted to chelate copper, Vitamin C userps the throne.

Vitamin C will push copper that's been previously chelated out no matter if it should yet, which reveals a ton of Unbound iron in the tissues and it sends the body into iron overload.

This is why some people gag heavily on Vitamin C.

If you are one of these people, you may find more success taking half the vitamin C, and assessing how you feel.

If you've previously done too much C when you are one of these people, you may find you have to take the formula without C every other round all together.

I have one guinea pig currently struggling with an iron overload issue because of this very reason, I am getting him on extra egcg, zinc, and molyb, and less to no C and hopefully that corrects the balance. But I'm pretty confident this is what happened because while the issue has to do with iron overload, circulation issues, his emotional status is calmer than ever.

So it's like he got all the benefits of the copper detox, but it surfaced iron overload, which I've done to myself many times. And fixed by lowering C. And to be honest with everyone, this can do some real damage to the body.

This is why I never ever suggest copper chelators beyond regular C. Which C is a free copper chelator. Not an iron bound copper chelator.

Add something like rutin or NAC, or something else into the mix, and C becomes a bound copper chelator.

If you let your free iron get too high, it can actually kill you.. this is why it is better to have sightly more of a copper balance than an iron.

 

T_R_Heisenberg said:

As for the why..... I honestly couldn't tell you. Biotin is the biggest mystery to me.

 

Everything else I can sort of place in this story with confidence, but biotin has always baffled me as to why we need so much.

And the calcium metabolism and mobilization theory seems to just make the most sense to me.

And the pain behind the eye, I swear I read somewhere, is a symptom of poor calcium metabolism or something.

That's totally just a thought in the ether of my data storage, please don't quote me on that.

But the other reason this makes sense to me, is because it was when the eye pain was the worst that my teeth also started to crumble and dissolve. Like calcium was just being leeched from my teeth.. the pain was excruciating.

I can still remember being hurled in the employee bathroom on my shift as an assistant manager at a vitamin store just moaning in agony in the bathroom with the lights off as I endured the massive pain behind my eye and my teeth just crumbling in my mouth.

This pain was second only to the kidney stone pain which was so bad i sweat from every pore violently.

 

T_R_Heisenberg said:

Just wait til you hit new peaks in DNA health. It's likely you had a higher zinc balance at one point in your life, and so your body grew to that point.

 

But as your zinc stores dwindled away slowly.. Your body and mind began to slow down.

Right now, your body is getting back up to speed to where it was, but there will come a point where you will have more zinc than you've ever had from all these poisons we've ingested and injected.

And when that happens, each cycle you do you begin to feel some bone structure shifts, and body and hair and eye changes.

At least that's my theory based on the fact that these changes really started happening after a few months on this versus right away.

As for Charlie, he's been doing this so long I think he can listen to his body better.

And with the lactoferrin combination, not to mentiom other methods he's likely tried that mightve been actually worse for him, it's possible he simply has way more metals than you to detox.

 

T_R_Heisenberg said:

Keep in mind, i dont have "sources", this is all theory based on what i have read over thousands of articles, and felt within my own body.

 

By isolating large doses of each nutrient, by putting myself in a meditative state, i attempted to visualize the interactions of these nutrients as pressures were both relieved and aggrivated, as well as pains and other various sensations in my skin, eyes, hair, muscles, and even joints and bones.

None of what I say will have any clear studies to back it 100%, and I could very well be wrong. But it's a reversed engineered theory, so I'm not as concerned about it being accurate to a T so long as it's logical and makes sense and works.

Now, the theory:

Vitamin C - Acts sort of as a binder and mobilizer of the metals within the blood. This i believe forces them to the detox pathways such as the bile ducts and kidneys.

This also seems to neutralize the molybdenum uric acid acidity within the blood. While Vitamin C is an acid, it actually has an alkalinity affect on the blood, and it felt very soothing to take it when I needed it from being drained of it by molybdenum.

It felt like a stagnant river in my blood had begun to flow again and cool down from a boiling acidicity.

Eventually, taking it on its own would start to really aggrivate certain symptoms like the pain behind my eyes, or the kidney pain, and I'd get itchy feet. So that's where the theory of Vitamin C "pushing" or "forcing" detox comes into play. It felt like Vitamin C was forcing copper to detox but it couldn't do it alone so it eventually began to rob me of b vitamins.

Vitamin B6 - I honestly don't even remember where I read it, but I swear I read an article that said b6 was needed for copper chelation, so I ran with that and took a bunch of b6. I could taste copper in my blood. But it just stayed there. So I theorized that b6 was pulling metals into the blood, but that's all it was doing.

Being low on b6 felt like the blood was dehydrated, like the cells within couldn't breath.
It felt nerve wracking... uneasy. Weak. And couldn't sleep at all.

Taking b6 when I needed it felt like someone turned the hose on with all the nutrients my blood needed... until it was too much.

But it was draining something... and my hair would get all itchy taking it, and my fingertips would get numb or prickly.

Then I learned about biotin in mass doses by taking a handful of it on a whim. I felt relief in my skin, like calcium deposits were clearing, and hair thickening in real time. I felt the cramps in my body easy, so I definitely feel it metabolises and mobilises calcium in some way.

So, vitamin B6 and biotin work together to pull copper out, vitamin C mobilises it, and you also need Vitamin B5 because biotin and b6 drain b5 reserves in the body. So b5 is a support agent of b6, as is biotin..

So think of the Bs as the pullers, C is the pusher, and Zinc restores the gap you just pulled copper and iron from.

Without zinc, the gap left in your receptors feels like shortcircuiting of your body almost. Your joints get achy and your digestion shuts off temporarily. You lose your appetite and you get depressed.

Zinc fills the Gap and you're better than before.

But last, there's the copper and iron to deal with, which is now surging and flowing in your blood from the Bs and C.

Iron normally will recycle almost eternally in the body, it doesn't sweat out nearly at all, and is so heavy the body can't pee it out. So EGCG binds to the iron, and passes it through the bile ducts.

EGCG will work regardless of whether you've pulled the iron out first or not so it can make people very sick and leave them with heavy zinc imbalance because of the gaps it left.

But when you chelate iron, you reveal oxidized copper that was once bound to that iron. This newly freed copper scavenges the body for new iron to bind to, and eventually wreaks havoc on the nervous system and hormones, and even bones. Copper also does not excrete easily, unless you take molybdenum while it's circulating through the blood.

The uric acid produced by molybdenum in that moment where all the vitamins are mass pulling copper and iron out, and the iron is being chelated, the quick burst of molybdenum produces enough uric acid to flush the new freed copper before the copper becomes destructive, and you experience euphoric feelings if done correctly because this is also producing massive surges of testosterone in the process.

The increase of zinc retention is turning your hormones on teenager level again eventually. And you begin to transform like a second puberty. All that zinc that could never absorb and properly heal the DNA is now able to be taken in in mass doses. Healing you faster than anything else out there.

This is HG7. The Holy Grail.

 

T_R_Heisenberg said:

Yeah I'm starting to think b5 and biotin are more closely aligned than I thought in needs. 1:1 seems to be necessary...

T_R_Heisenberg said:

I would only expect blood copper to rise if you also do some b6 with that

T_R_Heisenberg said:

So, egcg will chelate iron regardless, but if the full protocol is missing a piece in the other portion, the copper excretion mechanisms are sort of stalled.

 

And copper begins to build up.. and if not correctly Calibrated with a dose without egcg, it's a slow process to get back in balance because you're freeing up more copper to excrete while already very backlogged on the copper you weren't able to excrete before.

Being low in any one of the others shuts the process down. But egcg will work anyway... that's why egcg is so toxic to so many.

Charlie just ran into this issue. He can confirm taking a dose without egcg cleared it up in a couple hours.

If not corrected, it can lead to a kidney stone... and believe me... you don't want that stone.

Luckily, it's fixed by simply doing above, raising your biotin and no egcg for a dose. And it should get you back up to speed in no time at all.

 

T_R_Heisenberg said:

So an interesting point was made earlier here and also it was addressed in the podcast.

 

There isn't really any evidence to say iron and copper bind and store, but I believe @whatisaging may have stumbled upon the explanation that can replace the theory.

Rather than binding to eachother, they suppress eachother. Being high in one suppresses excretion method of the other.

I believe it is copper that is clogging the zinc sites, but the surrounding iron, maybe in the tissues in an oxidized state is preventing zinc from entering the cells because the channels that copper would normally try to exit the cells are blocked by that iron.

I think I like this explanation better, because it explains why binding an iron molecule with egcg wouldn't also bind to the copper. I've never really been able to answer that.

T_R_Heisenberg said:

And it is because copper is a direct antagonist of Vitamin C that the iron goes into an oxidized state.

 

The blood shows low iron because the copper in the body is negating the efficacy of C. And thus C is unable to circulate iron through the blood.

And because copper also is a direct antagonist or user of b6, b6 is unable to store leaving the iron in the tissues oxidized instead of showing in a blood test...

 

T_R_Heisenberg said:

Keep in mind, i dont have "sources", this is all theory based on what i have read over thousands of articles, and felt within my own body.

 

By isolating large doses of each nutrient, by putting myself in a meditative state, i attempted to visualize the interactions of these nutrients as pressures were both relieved and aggrivated, as well as pains and other various sensations in my skin, eyes, hair, muscles, and even joints and bones.

None of what I say will have any clear studies to back it 100%, and I could very well be wrong. But it's a reversed engineered theory, so I'm not as concerned about it being accurate to a T so long as it's logical and makes sense and works.

Now, the theory:

Vitamin C - Acts sort of as a binder and mobilizer of the metals within the blood. This i believe forces them to the detox pathways such as the bile ducts and kidneys.

This also seems to neutralize the molybdenum uric acid acidity within the blood. While Vitamin C is an acid, it actually has an alkalinity affect on the blood, and it felt very soothing to take it when I needed it from being drained of it by molybdenum.

It felt like a stagnant river in my blood had begun to flow again and cool down from a boiling acidicity.

Eventually, taking it on its own would start to really aggrivate certain symptoms like the pain behind my eyes, or the kidney pain, and I'd get itchy feet. So that's where the theory of Vitamin C "pushing" or "forcing" detox comes into play. It felt like Vitamin C was forcing copper to detox but it couldn't do it alone so it eventually began to rob me of b vitamins.

Vitamin B6 - I honestly don't even remember where I read it, but I swear I read an article that said b6 was needed for copper chelation, so I ran with that and took a bunch of b6. I could taste copper in my blood. But it just stayed there. So I theorized that b6 was pulling metals into the blood, but that's all it was doing.

Being low on b6 felt like the blood was dehydrated, like the cells within couldn't breath.
It felt nerve wracking... uneasy. Weak. And couldn't sleep at all.

Taking b6 when I needed it felt like someone turned the hose on with all the nutrients my blood needed... until it was too much.

But it was draining something... and my hair would get all itchy taking it, and my fingertips would get numb or prickly.

Then I learned about biotin in mass doses by taking a handful of it on a whim. I felt relief in my skin, like calcium deposits were clearing, and hair thickening in real time. I felt the cramps in my body easy, so I definitely feel it metabolises and mobilises calcium in some way.

So, vitamin B6 and biotin work together to pull copper out, vitamin C mobilises it, and you also need Vitamin B5 because biotin and b6 drain b5 reserves in the body. So b5 is a support agent of b6, as is biotin..

So think of the Bs as the pullers, C is the pusher, and Zinc restores the gap you just pulled copper and iron from.

Without zinc, the gap left in your receptors feels like shortcircuiting of your body almost. Your joints get achy and your digestion shuts off temporarily. You lose your appetite and you get depressed.

Zinc fills the Gap and you're better than before.

But last, there's the copper and iron to deal with, which is now surging and flowing in your blood from the Bs and C.

Iron normally will recycle almost eternally in the body, it doesn't sweat out nearly at all, and is so heavy the body can't pee it out. So EGCG binds to the iron, and passes it through the bile ducts.

EGCG will work regardless of whether you've pulled the iron out first or not so it can make people very sick and leave them with heavy zinc imbalance because of the gaps it left.

But when you chelate iron, you reveal oxidized copper that was once bound to that iron. This newly freed copper scavenges the body for new iron to bind to, and eventually wreaks havoc on the nervous system and hormones, and even bones. Copper also does not excrete easily, unless you take molybdenum while it's circulating through the blood.

The uric acid produced by molybdenum in that moment where all the vitamins are mass pulling copper and iron out, and the iron is being chelated, the quick burst of molybdenum produces enough uric acid to flush the new freed copper before the copper becomes destructive, and you experience euphoric feelings if done correctly because this is also producing massive surges of testosterone in the process.

The increase of zinc retention is turning your hormones on teenager level again eventually. And you begin to transform like a second puberty. All that zinc that could never absorb and properly heal the DNA is now able to be taken in in mass doses. Healing you faster than anything else out there.

Hello @jiri, I am @whatisaging from lowtoxinforum.com, and this is my post that you copy-pasted without linking.  Here is the original.

 

It took me at least an hour of my free time to go through the thousands of forum posts in that thread and compile that list.  @to  in post #18 above seems to think this was your work, and that you are planning to write some theory posts.  You also indicated that you are planning on doing some tests.

 

If you are planning original such content, then I am of course interested.  But please do not share my work or test results without at least providing a link, out of respect for my time and energy.  I am not making any money from this.  No advertising revenue, no selling any services, nor giving advice to people in exchange for any compensation.  I've spent over $600 of my own cash on tests so far and at least hundreds of hours gathering and reading papers.

 

All I ask is proper attribution if it's being shared somewhere.  A link would do just fine.

 

Here are some posts to anyone interested in some of the theory on this protocol.

 

0. Here are more of Heisenberg's theory posts and screenshots.  A third collection. 

1. Here is a theory post on what vitamin B6 does in the protocol and connections to other protocols.

2. Here is a blood test experiment I did to determine whether iron-bound copper exists. It also shows uric acid is staying normal for now, despite high molybdenum.

3. Here is my first hair test, its Dr. Wilson interpretations, and my second hair test which shows improved copper and calcium.

4. This post compares this protocol to Garrett Smith's protocol.

5. This post explains what B5 and biotin might be doing in the protocol.

6. Here is a protocol with four similar ingredients that has some success with hair loss.

7. Here are my posts on relationships between zinc, DNA repair and aging, the zinc theory of aging, and the possible role of metals in regeneration.

8. @Martin1sz's observation on zinc bisglycinate possibly being better than zinc picolinate. 

9. @kiran.shah15's post on the pendulum method for calibrating doses

10. @Bliss's post on how long nutrients last in the blood, and applications to timing doses