Quote from whatisaging on March 3, 2025, 4:47 pm

Quote from Jiří on March 3, 2025, 12:04 am

@whatisaging Ok I deleted that post. So you don't feel robbed.. Btw I created this thread here so people can discuss this topic without paying any money and  without any fear of censorship, bans or whatever if hey for example tried this protocol and will have some issues from it etc.. Because we don't really know if they would leave comments there if someone will report some serious issues for example. I was in many many many groups and simply once you are trying to show that it doesn't work for everyone or it is dangerous for some. The people who created that idea/protocol etc.. obviously don't like it. Even if they are trying hard to be objective as much as possible. Because that would automatically meant that they were wrong.. Hopefully it wont happen and it will work great for everyone..  

Btw like I said before I don't know why HG7 creator keeps saying that EGCG chelates only iron and not copper when it is not true at all? It can chelate copper, zinc and other toxic metals like lead etc. as well? It is crazy that he is creating all those scenarios of what is going on in the body while taking all of this without ANY testing. Not even basic blood testing.

I actually think that when you are taking that EGCG with the zinc and molybdenum at the same time that EGCG will bind a lot of that zinc/molybdenum in the gut. Not to mention that your gut can't even absorb such a high doses. SO the question is what it really does in the body. To me it looks like waste of money on supplements. They cancel each other already in he gut and huge portion will just end up in toilet.. So I wonder why you are not showing him papers on how much zinc can the body actually absorb at once or that EGCG can chelate zinc and copper as well? It simply looks again like desperate people really want to believe in it. So they are just looking at stuff that supports this new believe.. Would be great to have more rational and not so one sided discussion. But that is not happening on lowtoxinforum that's for sure.  

OK thanks, a link to the OP would have sufficed as well.

 

The theory stuff he talks about isn't what drew me in.  I later learned he got all these explanations by interpreting his symptoms and his responses to the supplements.  This makes it less scientifically credible, yes, but it's not without value in my eyes, since it's like an N=1 laboratory with tens of thousands of tests.  I know for myself, at least, based on having done the protocol myself, that what he's done symptom-wise has been refined to pinpoint accuracy, and it's enough for me to think there's something good here.

 

Yes, he doesn't blood test at all.  The experiments he's done are all based on his symptoms. It was done methodologically though.  The symptoms and their treatments are consistent in my experience, without any ambiguity.  For example, every time I take the protocol, I feel a headache, and over hundreds of times now, I can fix it with EGCG.  Same with pain below the right ribs with zinc/moly, and pain below the left ribs with moly.  It's 100% consistent for me, and with the others who are on the formula.  This is something I've only experienced with traditional Chinese medicine.  Experiencing this for myself is what most convinced me about the protocol.  

 

Yes, EGCG seems to chelate all metals to various degrees.  But as above, the symptoms that EGCG fixes are much different than what zinc/moly fix, so I would think it's odd if EGCG is chelating copper. 

 

There's also some circumstantial evidence that it's attacking iron specifically.  One example is that my headaches occur in my eyes: the macular degeneration with age is associated with iron overload (in connection with vitamin A).  Another iron connection is that eye pain in traditional Chinese medicine is related to the gallbladder meridian and liver-heat.  High iron foods like beef warm the liver, and I do experience these same eye pain symptoms from beef.

 

Yes, there could be interactions of the ingredients in the gut.  But I'm not sure that it's rendering the protocol useless.  For me at least, the protocol is doing what nothing else could.  Maybe it could be improved, but the protocol, even as is, is doing quite well for me.

 

I don't know much about the science of absorption, I've been focusing on other aspects.  I do know that if I use a smaller dose of the protocol, say 1/4 in size, then I feel less effects than normal.  If what you say about it being impossible to absorb that much is true, even over 8 hours with food in the stomach, then it might mean the protocol is acting mostly on the gut.  We release bile, which contains unbound iron and copper.  Maybe it's neutralizing the metals in the bile.  But then one would have to explain why people on the protocol can fix headaches, pains below the ribs (way before the food reaches that point in the gut), tooth pains, and many other symptoms which are not in the gut.  I personally don't feel a single gut related symptom, so I feel that some amount of absorption makes more sense than not.

Quote from Jiří on March 4, 2025, 12:35 am

@whatisaging " The symptoms and their treatments are consistent in my experience" 

Yeah exactly taking huge doses of micronutrients to manage symptoms. But you or the creator himself don't know why is that specific symptom happening. It is one huge speculation on his part. There is so many variables that it can do completely different things than he thinks and to think that EVERYONE should take the same ratios of micronutrients let alone amounts really is crazy and it shows again how little he knows about human biochemistry.. Every time you are trying to create some protocol that will work for all people automatically means that it can work for some. But will ruin others that have completely different needs for their specific case... I am all about balancing elements in the body. I believe that it is the single most important thing to push out what is in excess and take in what is low in the body. But you can't do this just by blindly take huge doses of stuff. I see why it is so "popular" because like I said people are desperate and this dude is giving them "easy fix" that is not so expensive and "works very fast" and he is not saying "you have to do some testing before you start so you know where you are" so people are jumping on board like crazy. But like someone on the forum said it is like with every "gamechanger" idea/protocol. It will slowly subside. More and more people will report issues with it and that will be end of it. Because we are not robots who all need the same stuff in the same dose to replenish the same stuff and to detox the same stuff.

He said "the idea is that everyone is iron and copper toxic" I mean is he for real? For example it is well know fact that athletes are low in iron and copper as well. Not everyone is sedentary smoker and junk eater like that dude.. If you are not copper toxic and you take such a high doses of strong copper antagonists long enough you will get into serious troubles. I will watch very carefully how he can handle cases like that when they arrive. Oh wait all he has to do is just give that person ban(with help of his follower Charlie) at his forum and the problem is solved. So ZERO accountability for his briliant ideas. Wonder if he would push it on others if he knew that he is going to prison once someone will seriously hurt himself following this protocol.. 

The more you know the more you are realizing how much you don't know and all this just shows how little he knows. Because of how much confident he is.. I mean I was calling Dr.Smith over the top joker at this point, BUT this is completely another level.. 

Would you recommend this protocol to someone you know or would you rather recommend him some practitioner that will do hair/blood testing and creating protocol and shifting it while testing for his specific needs? I mean seriously? The only reason why not to choose the second option in my eyes are money. So the question is what is the price of your single most important thing on this world to you which is your health...  

 

Quote from grapes on March 4, 2025, 4:47 am

@whatisaging I follow more or less that thread too and haven't noticed whether someone has had their health improved in some way. Mostly people talk about their reaction to the supplements combo. But the goal of taking it would be to improve something, isn't it? What about you, in what way did you improve with this protocol?

I agree with @jiri that we most probably have different needs in micro-nutrients. As an example I use a tap water filter. Though I don't filter that much water (some drinking and cooking), in just a few months the cartridge is covered with an orange copper layer (from pipes). If I didn't use it I would consume at least partly all that copper, but now that it is filtered my copper intake must be very different I guess.

Quote from whatisaging on March 4, 2025, 6:59 am

Quote from Jiří on March 4, 2025, 12:35 am

Would you recommend this protocol to someone you know or would you rather recommend him some practitioner that will do hair/blood testing and creating protocol and shifting it while testing for his specific needs? I mean seriously? The only reason why not to choose the second option in my eyes are money. So the question is what is the price of your single most important thing on this world to you which is your health...  

The results are promised in one week, which is a low commitment.  People sensitive to supplements, on medications, medical conditions, and such should be more careful, obviously.  But I'm a healthy guy in his early 30's, so I thought a week would be easy enough. If I did badly, I would just dump it.

I got great results in just two days.  I felt my brain fog lift after over 8 years. The most negative I've had to deal with is a single vomiting episode, when I took the formula on an empty stomach.

So this is much different than paid health gurus asking people to commit to a lifestyle for years.  The guy is helping dozens of people calibrate on his own free time, asking nothing in return.

Quote from Jiří on March 4, 2025, 12:35 am

Oh wait all he has to do is just give that person ban(with help of his follower Charlie) at his forum and the problem is solved. So ZERO accountability for his briliant ideas. Wonder if he would push it on others if he knew that he is going to prison once someone will seriously hurt himself following this protocol.. 

Such a thing hasn't happened.  I think he made noise like this when he got mad at one guy, but Charlie didn't respond to this or ban the guy.  We'll see if it ends up happening, I guess.

Quote from Jiří on March 4, 2025, 12:35 am

@whatisaging " The symptoms and their treatments are consistent in my experience" 

Yeah exactly taking huge doses of micronutrients to manage symptoms. But you or the creator himself don't know why is that specific symptom happening. It is one huge speculation on his part.

There has been some limited testing, and it's been consistent with his ideas so far. 

1. I did two hair tests, and my high copper was cut in half in just a month. 

2. I did a two-day blood test experiment, where I took no supps for 3 days, then took the protocol without EGCG.  My blood iron spiked 25%, and everything else I measured stayed the same or dipped slightly.  It's some evidence that removing copper releases iron, like he theorizes.  My uric acid was also normal, interestingly.

3. In the video above, Elwin Robinson showed his estradiol lowered, and his uric raised from low, both consistent with various ideas for reasons you can see there.

4. The iron-bound copper idea has some more blood testing. Paola Dziwetzki did blood tests over months and showed that after a sequence of phlebotomies, her blood copper spiked. 

5. His iron-bound copper idea has support in the scientific literature, like the three tweets in this thread.  Basically, iron accumulation seems to steal copper enzymes and cause copper accumulation, in order to detoxify the iron.  Removing the iron releases this stored copper.

Quote from Jiří on March 4, 2025, 12:35 am

 Because we are not robots who all need the same stuff in the same dose to replenish the same stuff and to detox the same stuff.

Those on the protocol are all taking much different ratios from each other, depending on their individual needs and responses.  So maybe you're theorizing that not everyone responds to any combination of these 7 ingredients.  I guess time will tell, the data so far is kind of limited. 

Quote from whatisaging on March 4, 2025, 7:18 am

Quote from grapes on March 4, 2025, 4:47 am

@whatisaging I follow more or less that thread too and haven't noticed whether someone has had their health improved in some way. Mostly people talk about their reaction to the supplements combo. But the goal of taking it would be to improve something, isn't it? What about you, in what way did you improve with this protocol?

I agree with @jiri that we most probably have different needs in micro-nutrients. As an example I use a tap water filter. Though I don't filter that much water (some drinking and cooking), in just a few months the cartridge is covered with an orange copper layer (from pipes). If I didn't use it I would consume at least partly all that copper, but now that it is filtered my copper intake must be very different I guess.

I'll mention people other than Heisenberg, his sister (who cured her bipolar) and his girlfriend (who lost 100 pounds, normalized period, and something else I can't remember).  First myself:

 

My high hair copper lowered by half in a month, and these symptoms resolved in a week, more details in this thread:

Depression, anxiety, fight/flight, Face eczema, and a shin rash which made my shins go bald, Post-meal eye/stomach/throat pains and brain fog, Dry hands from tap water, Tooth pains, Formation of new wrinkles, an important but TMI symptom.

 

Here's a few more testimonials from hyper-responders off the top of my head:

 

The longest guinea pig Felix Arnold, and all his symptoms

Charlie's fight/flight resolved, and other

Period normalization within a couple weeks (she switched to primal diet eventually out of preference)

 

 

There are at least 10 (as of Jan 21) private mid-responders who report mild benefits like improved mood and energy.

 

 

There are also a few people who didn't get benefits and got rather worse, such these recent ones:

Brenbail, who was trying to come off her thyroid medication at the same time, so had to keep adjusting the formula in response to symptoms, for around 2 months.

Hidden49, who experienced less self confidence and such (although admits there were positives too).  He thinks he's got more iron than copper and decided to try other things than continue to adjust ratios

 

So overall, it's like a bell curve, and there are some like me who do really well, a lot of people with only mild benefits, and a few who have at least some negative effects.

Quote from Eio on March 4, 2025, 8:07 am

It seems like the people who are benefiting from this protocol are young.  How is it that they have so much iron and copper built up by their 30s?  

I haven't tried it and won't but it also seems like there is an increase in stress hormones that might make a person feel better.  Has anyone tested their cortisol levels?  

Estrogen will make some people feel like their libido is better.  Has anyone tested their estrogen?  The girl friend who was helped by weight loss and having her period normalized is interesting but her diet changed, too.  

I have been reading that thread and there may be many people benefiting from this protocol that don't contribute.  If it works so well, why it is necessary to continue?

Quote from whatisaging on March 4, 2025, 1:11 pm

 

 

 

Quote from Eio on March 4, 2025, 8:07 am

It seems like the people who are benefiting from this protocol are young.  How is it that they have so much iron and copper built up by their 30s?  

 

One of the hallmarks of aging is metal accumulation in the organs, see below, where MT = metallothionein, the metal storage proteins.  Not sure yet it's causal, but I'm not surprised if that's what's happening.

Quote from Eio on March 4, 2025, 8:07 am

I haven't tried it and won't but it also seems like there is an increase in stress hormones that might make a person feel better.  Has anyone tested their cortisol levels?  

Estrogen will make some people feel like their libido is better.  Has anyone tested their estrogen?  The girl friend who was helped by weight loss and having her period normalized is interesting but her diet changed, too.  

I have been reading that thread and there may be many people benefiting from this protocol that don't contribute.  If it works so well, why it is necessary to continue?

No news on hormone testing, maybe Elwin did cortisol, since he tests a lot.

 

My hair copper is still 4 times higher than average, so it seems to take time to get the metals out.  So why are my symptoms so improved?  Maybe because the protocol is handling the metals in circulation.  Less metals in the blood = less damage.  But there's still maybe a lot in storage. 

 

Heisenberg himself tried stopping the formula recently for a few weeks, and by the end had (rather mild) metal symptoms again, suggesting his stores haven't depleted yet. 

 

I also think his dark circles aren't totally fixed yet, although they look much better. Some dark circles are caused by hemosiderin deposits, so if that's what's happening there, he has partially fixed his stores.

Quote from Eio on March 4, 2025, 2:47 pm

@whatisaging

Thank you for your explanations.  I guess this is something that people will have to be doing their whole lives if they are eating foods with iron and copper.  

Quote from whatisaging on March 4, 2025, 5:57 pm

Quote from Eio on March 4, 2025, 2:47 pm

@whatisaging

Thank you for your explanations.  I guess this is something that people will have to be doing their whole lives if they are eating foods with iron and copper.  

Heisenberg doesn't think so, but my (working) theory is that iron and copper accumulation are just a part of being an adult, and one of the causes of aging.  So yes, continued use might be necessary even after we're cleared out.