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New protocol to fix iron/copper toxicity
We buy 50# bags of organic barley and organic oats. Sometimes we grind it. Mostly we soak it a few hours. They get ground beef treats few times a week. They also get our left over oatmeal and rice from dinner and breakfast. We cook extra for them. Besides that, they get what they find in compost and yard. And crushed oyster shell and some grit. Hope he does well.
@alex3 interesting so you think manganese is just toxin not essential element? For example I had low manganese on hair tests and ARl recommends decent amount of manganese. They recommend it together with zinc because high dose zinc lowers sodium and manganese helps rise sodium so you can tolerate more zinc if you take manganese with it. It can become toxic. I would say the same scenario as with copper. Just manganese seems to be less damaging.
Also interesting that you think you need to lower copper first and than the body can deal with excess of iron? How?
Most people say the opposite that you deal with iron overload and that reduces excess of oxidative stress and that helps rise ceruloplasmin=bioavailable copper.
HG7 same idea. You take EGCG to chelate iron so the copper comes out..
Btw there are two forms of lactoferrin. Regular lactoferrin from milk that already contains iron and that is good for rising iron and you have synthetic APOlactoferrin that helps bind free copper. When I was taking it I felt insanely anemic. I felt like there is zero blood in me hehe..
I think the most simple and safe approach lowering iron/copper intake. Donating blood and taking some zinc + trying to fix bile flow so liver flushes, lecithin, TUDCA, taurine, glycine etc. bitters etc.. and watch blood/hair tests what it does.
Because there is a balance. If you over do it with zinc and you lower copper too much that will just tank sodium on hair test(adrenal function) and that means you can't no longer effectively run copper metabolism. Did that mistake many times taking copper antagonists making myself miserable..
HG7 is very interesting. But I don't like that idea taking completely insane amounts of stuff.
But maybe at some point I will try to experiment with it just with like 5% dosages..
I am mainly interested in that EGCG and what it really does in the body.
But for me my main bottle neck is bile flow. It seems that I can't make it work. It looks like chronic mental stress is manifesting in physical symptoms like low bile production and flow..
@alex3 Sorry I formulated that questing badly. I was asking how you want lower/detox iron from the body once you lower/detox copper? Apart from blocking absorption of new iron coming in. I don't think there is a effective way to detox what is already in the body apart from bleeding.
What you say about manganese is interesting and I do think that it is problematic metal like copper is. But I don't believe that it is not essential.
For now I believe Paul Eck/Dr.Wilson with their 40years and crazy amounts of hair test that they have done. If manganese was just toxic metal that makes health worse they would stop using it long time ago. They know it can become toxic. They call it "amigos" with iron and other essential metals that can accumulate..
What is interesting to me is that cholestatic property of manganese because I do have issues with bile production.
The only time I had good bile folw in last lets say 15 years was when I was not eating any grains, any nuts and seeds or legumes. I was eating just cornflakes with jam and fruit in the morning and potatoes and some white rice with all kinds of meats and sea food like octopus, squid, shrimp and olive oil..
Now I am looking at the manganese content and it is on a low side for sure. Apart from the white rice that has moderate amount.
I had great pooping on that diet. Come home, cook my gluten free oats and within a day again clear sign of low bile flow when I looked on my pale poop floating in the toilet water..
So thx for putting this idea into my head. I will eat today my oatmeal and pumpkin seeds that I already soaked for today and from the next day I will try lower my manganese as much as possible and will see what the result will be.
Btw interesting fact. I was eating last month macadamia nuts(probably best nut in terms of fatty acid profile, low antinutrients etc..) for the high manganese content. Because ARl recommends taking Mn with zinc, but I didn't want to take it in pills so was making sure I am eating good amount from the diet..
Just 30g serving will give you more than 100% or RDA and I had crazy constipation. Was pooping basically very dry pellets..
Will figure out today a diet that has less than RDA for Mn and will keep eating it for couple of days if I see any changes..
Very much enjoying the back and forth about manganese. I'd like to post an article by Chris Masterjohn which addresses manganese toxicity that I think you'll both find interesting:
Iron Overload: Forget What You Thought You Knew
Everything we think we know about iron status starts to crumble when we step back and appreciate the role of manganese
https://chrismasterjohnphd.substack.com/p/iron-overload-forget-what-you-thought
@livy yeah interesting. The balance between iron, copper, zinc, manganese is huge for our health.
Btw chromium is another important manganese and copper antagonist. Most people run low on chromium.
My chromium on hair test was crazy low and I do have issues with blood sugar regulation. I get hypoglycemia easily if I eat high GI meal etc.. and chromium is key to blood sugar regulation..
Nobody but people in hair testing are talking about chromium.
I say it all the time balance of elements in the body is key to health.. Just imagine if mainstream medical system and big pharma would put into mineral balancing just 10% of money that they circle around from all kinds of meds and drugs. We would have really good machines now that would easily test all tissues and organs in the body and tell us what is going on. But the problem is they will not make any money by telling us "you need less copper and manganese and more chromium and zinc" or something like that..
Reading that Chris article heh. I was eating very high manganese diet when I did "homemade bleeding" to lower my iron. Exactly the opposite that he suggests. Intake 2mg per day or less. That is very hard to do. You have to switch basically to meat based diet, but that comes with a lot of iron lol.. Dairy can be a good option. Wish I could eat it. Tried homemade goat milk kefir again and no way. I feel like death eating it..
Interesting that Chris was not mentioning use of zinc to increase metallothionein. That keeps manganese in check as well..
Anyways I don't know what to eat anymore if I have to lower even manganese LOL. I was always eating white rice as main source of carbs and it sems it has more than 1mg per 100g and that is considered carb source lower in manganese. I see some topics on reddit where vegans ask if it's dangerous to eat 15-20mg from diet every day hehe. Most answers are that there is no evidence of manganese toxicity from food. But they say the same thing about copper so..
I am feeling some cognitive dissonance from your posts. Why did you say this about Karen Hurd: "Btw just to show how she doesn't understand biochemistry that much. She is all about reducing adrenaline with stopping recycling of hormones in bile. But she struggles to understand that her diet high in nuts, seeds, grains and legumes is LOADED with copper and that copper pushes dopamine into Noradrenaline."
Yet here you are eating oats, nuts and seeds? And not having good bile flow?
I hate oats, my body doesn't like them. I also can't eat nuts and seeds besides peanut butter because they cause IBS. I agree that plant based diets are imbalanced, we need animal products which is why Karen recommends animal protein three times a day.
@janelle525 Because she is authority figure at this point. Why you think I am not trying to be another "smart ass" who is making videos and influencing thousands of people. Because I know that there are big holes in my knowledge and I know that even if I could help some people I know for sure that I would hurt some people as well with what I say.
So here I am just as another no name forum rat trying to figure stuff out for myself.
You think that Karen is also so self aware? I don't think so. I couldn't sleep knowing that I speak to thousands of people as authority figure while having big holes in knowledge/understanding of the full picture.. Same goes for Dr.Smith who has not issue obviously hurting a lot of people when he says insane stuff like copper is not essential element for humans or whatever.
The reality is the people who know the most don't speak publicly at all. Because they know exactly how much they still don't know.
Karen is not like that. She has everything figure out at this point. I saw plenty of her interviews. She is saying those same stories and made up theories again and again. Like I said she is great with her fiber stuff. But why she has to made up nonsense like if you don't have enough triglycerides you can't make bile for example?
But you will never see her sitting down with real scientist/ biochemist who can ask specific question that she has to answer correctly. She would look stupid.
SO she is talking just with people who barely know what fiber is. You can say whatever you want to them and they can't argue with her when they don't know what they don't know heh..
I know that I know hardly anything as well. That's why I have no problem change my mind all the time. I eat something because my mind says me it is good for this thing, but then I learn it is bad because of that thing so I stop etc..
But Karen thinks she knows everything. That's why she probably doesn't even search stuff anymore. She knows exactly what everyone needs. Really?