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The relationship between Vitamin A, Copper, Ceruloplasmin and Thyroid

#101 · August 1, 2023, 1:32 pm

Quote from Alex on August 1, 2023, 1:32 pm

Quote from Henrik on July 24, 2023, 12:38 pm

I'm not surehowto go about this, but that ray peat post is sort of hogwash... Im not saying it to be mean its just so much conjecture there - like just the idea that b1 deficiancy would be rampant in Peaty circles - Ive seen no such indications, rather an oversupplementation of vitamin Bs (opposed to Peats suggestions). Also "Retinoic acid increases metabolism"?? On what do you base this - it's quite clear both from individuals thyroid improvement on low A diet and Grants research that it does no such thing. Also I was Peating for over 10 years with nice thyroid panels and taking vitamin B while getting my toxicity - and while it's true that it A oxidises easily and that you need B's to handle the detox - the rest of the logic is quite simplistic, and I must say I feel also thoroughly debunked in Grants books. I of course agree that you can handle more A if your machine is running well (high metabolism) -thats a generalized observation that yes we do handle more shit when having good thyroid function. Unless I see some serious research backing this up I call BS. I know its quite strong language but I feel its an important issue so Im going hard but on the ball, not the player. 🙂

@henrik It was me who wrote the RP post as I mentioned earlier in this thread. Those were all supposed to be possible factors on why could someone have Vitamin A toxicity.

The possibility of a b1 deficiency would apply to the RP’ers who developed vitamin A toxicity.

Aldehydes are toxic chemicals produced by fermentation of sugars. They are produced by yeasts and fungi, which are called fermenting organisms.
B1 binds to aldehydes. When the body is detoxifying acetaldehyde, vitamin B1 is destroyed. Carotenoids convert into retinal aldehyde. It’s very easy for one of these people to run into a b1 deficiency if they are doing a high sugar, high carotenoid diet in combination with a sedentary lifestyle . Sugar increases growth of Candida by a 20 fold. Coffee has acetalaldehyde. Yeasts and fungi produce acetaldehyde too If you are sitting around on your ass for most the day like a lot of Ray Peat folk then you’re gonna be feeding yeasts and and bad microbes with all that sugar. And your ALDH and ADH enzymes will be overburdened.

I saw gbolduev say Vitamin A increases metabolism. And I think his knowledge is far superior to Grants and Ray peats.

“Retinoic acid increases metabolism is puts pressure on glutathione. Vitamin A is not retinoic acid and converts to it on needed basis. you need to understand that to produce retinoic acid body needs b2)) and moly and 5 reactions. only then retinoic acid can increase metabolism ))”

In the HTMA world it is a known fact that Vitamin A increases the oxidation rate which is what determines the metabolic rate slow oxidiser = low metabolism , fast oxidiser = high metabolism. I think all Vit A toxic people are slow oxidisers

Then also this study says Vitamin A increases ATP in mitochondria

https://www.nutri-facts.org/en_US/news/articles/vitamin-a_s-role-in-energy-production-identified.html#

Now there is also talk by Meri Arthur that Vitamin A toxic people have a retinoic acid deficiency because they are not even getting to the later stages where retinol or retinal is converted to retinoic acid.

Overdosing on Vitamin A can cause hypothyroid too, Ray Peat mentions that as well.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23378454/#:~:text=Vitamin%20A%20has%20been%20shown,subclinical%20hypothyroidism%20is%20still%20unclear.

Quote from Henrik on July 24, 2023, 12:38 pm

I'm not surehowto go about this, but that ray peat post is sort of hogwash... Im not saying it to be mean its just so much conjecture there - like just the idea that b1 deficiancy would be rampant in Peaty circles - Ive seen no such indications, rather an oversupplementation of vitamin Bs (opposed to Peats suggestions). Also "Retinoic acid increases metabolism"?? On what do you base this - it's quite clear both from individuals thyroid improvement on low A diet and Grants research that it does no such thing. Also I was Peating for over 10 years with nice thyroid panels and taking vitamin B while getting my toxicity - and while it's true that it A oxidises easily and that you need B's to handle the detox - the rest of the logic is quite simplistic, and I must say I feel also thoroughly debunked in Grants books. I of course agree that you can handle more A if your machine is running well (high metabolism) -thats a generalized observation that yes we do handle more shit when having good thyroid function. Unless I see some serious research backing this up I call BS. I know its quite strong language but I feel its an important issue so Im going hard but on the ball, not the player. 🙂

@henrik It was me who wrote the RP post as I mentioned earlier in this thread. Those were all supposed to be possible factors on why could someone have Vitamin A toxicity.

The possibility of a b1 deficiency would apply to the RP’ers who developed vitamin A toxicity.

Aldehydes are toxic chemicals produced by fermentation of sugars. They are produced by yeasts and fungi, which are called fermenting organisms.
B1 binds to aldehydes. When the body is detoxifying acetaldehyde, vitamin B1 is destroyed. Carotenoids convert into retinal aldehyde. It’s very easy for one of these people to run into a b1 deficiency if they are doing a high sugar, high carotenoid diet in combination with a sedentary lifestyle . Sugar increases growth of Candida by a 20 fold. Coffee has acetalaldehyde. Yeasts and fungi produce acetaldehyde too If you are sitting around on your ass for most the day like a lot of Ray Peat folk then you’re gonna be feeding yeasts and and bad microbes with all that sugar. And your ALDH and ADH enzymes will be overburdened.

I saw gbolduev say Vitamin A increases metabolism. And I think his knowledge is far superior to Grants and Ray peats.

“Retinoic acid increases metabolism is puts pressure on glutathione. Vitamin A is not retinoic acid and converts to it on needed basis. you need to understand that to produce retinoic acid body needs b2)) and moly and 5 reactions. only then retinoic acid can increase metabolism ))”

In the HTMA world it is a known fact that Vitamin A increases the oxidation rate which is what determines the metabolic rate slow oxidiser = low metabolism , fast oxidiser = high metabolism. I think all Vit A toxic people are slow oxidisers

Then also this study says Vitamin A increases ATP in mitochondria

https://www.nutri-facts.org/en_US/news/articles/vitamin-a_s-role-in-energy-production-identified.html#

Now there is also talk by Meri Arthur that Vitamin A toxic people have a retinoic acid deficiency because they are not even getting to the later stages where retinol or retinal is converted to retinoic acid.

Overdosing on Vitamin A can cause hypothyroid too, Ray Peat mentions that as well.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23378454/#:~:text=Vitamin%20A%20has%20been%20shown,subclinical%20hypothyroidism%20is%20still%20unclear.

Ourania has reacted to this post.

#102 · August 1, 2023, 1:42 pm

@jiri Nice yeah it was the same for me with T3 I felt a strong body temp increase that I had never felt in my life before. Going out in nature made me feel amazing on T3 compared to normal. It improved digestion for me as well and I craved healthier foods. I just didn’t feel the need really to continue taking T3 so I stopped it as I’m trying to fix everything naturally. You should try B1 like Benfo with the T3 they work really well together..

A friend told me when I took that apparently in RP community 8mcg is a big dose of T3 and it should be done in smaller doses throughout out the day not sure how accurate that is.

Hermes has reacted to this post.

#103 · August 1, 2023, 5:45 pm

Quote from Henrik on August 1, 2023, 5:45 pm

Quote from AlexM on August 1, 2023, 1:32 pm

Quote from Henrik on July 24, 2023, 12:38 pm

I'm not surehowto go about this, but that ray peat post is sort of hogwash... Im not saying it to be mean its just so much conjecture there - like just the idea that b1 deficiancy would be rampant in Peaty circles - Ive seen no such indications, rather an oversupplementation of vitamin Bs (opposed to Peats suggestions). Also "Retinoic acid increases metabolism"?? On what do you base this - it's quite clear both from individuals thyroid improvement on low A diet and Grants research that it does no such thing. Also I was Peating for over 10 years with nice thyroid panels and taking vitamin B while getting my toxicity - and while it's true that it A oxidises easily and that you need B's to handle the detox - the rest of the logic is quite simplistic, and I must say I feel also thoroughly debunked in Grants books. I of course agree that you can handle more A if your machine is running well (high metabolism) -thats a generalized observation that yes we do handle more shit when having good thyroid function. Unless I see some serious research backing this up I call BS. I know its quite strong language but I feel its an important issue so Im going hard but on the ball, not the player. 🙂

@henrik It was me who wrote the RP post as I mentioned earlier in this thread. Those were all supposed to be possible factors on why could someone have Vitamin A toxicity.

The possibility of a b1 deficiency would apply to the RP’ers who developed vitamin A toxicity.

Aldehydes are toxic chemicals produced by fermentation of sugars. They are produced by yeasts and fungi, which are called fermenting organisms.
B1 binds to aldehydes. When the body is detoxifying acetaldehyde, vitamin B1 is destroyed. Carotenoids convert into retinal aldehyde. It’s very easy for one of these people to run into a b1 deficiency if they are doing a high sugar, high carotenoid diet in combination with a sedentary lifestyle . Sugar increases growth of Candida by a 20 fold. Coffee has acetalaldehyde. Yeasts and fungi produce acetaldehyde too If you are sitting around on your ass for most the day like a lot of Ray Peat folk then you’re gonna be feeding yeasts and and bad microbes with all that sugar. And your ALDH and ADH enzymes will be overburdened.

I saw gbolduev say Vitamin A increases metabolism. And I think his knowledge is far superior to Grants and Ray peats.

“Retinoic acid increases metabolism is puts pressure on glutathione. Vitamin A is not retinoic acid and converts to it on needed basis. you need to understand that to produce retinoic acid body needs b2)) and moly and 5 reactions. only then retinoic acid can increase metabolism ))”

In the HTMA world it is a known fact that Vitamin A increases the oxidation rate which is what determines the metabolic rate slow oxidiser = low metabolism , fast oxidiser = high metabolism. I think all Vit A toxic people are slow oxidisers

Then also this study says Vitamin A increases ATP in mitochondria

https://www.nutri-facts.org/en_US/news/articles/vitamin-a_s-role-in-energy-production-identified.html#

Now there is also talk by Meri Arthur that Vitamin A toxic people have a retinoic acid deficiency because they are not even getting to the later stages where retinol or retinal is converted to retinoic acid.

Overdosing on Vitamin A can cause hypothyroid too, Ray Peat mentions that as well.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23378454/#:~:text=Vitamin%20A%20has%20been%20shown,subclinical%20hypothyroidism%20is%20still%20unclear.

Well of course I cant prove that it's uncommon , but from what Ive seen of peoples bloodtests and the posting of peoples abnorm consumption of supplements I find it highly unlikely. Personally I did develop the toxicity pretty well while B1 was high all the time though of course empty carbs and vitamin A depletes it. On gbolduev I have no opinion. I just referred to Grant because of his research references and sound lines of argumentation. I dont care for trusting in people. I think its important to study the data,and I cannot see any such data that has not been very well dismantled, especially by him. I might add that what gbolduev states is largely conjecture and some of it has no real scientific meaning - like putting pressure on glutathion to increase metabolism? what does that even mean? - also is gbolduev even aware what he means by metabolism. A) Glutathion does not to my knowledge enter neither, Krebs cycle, electron transport chain or randle cycle, nor up or down regulate thyroid function. B)Is he referring to energy usage? that is not the same as metabolism which is refferring to actual metabolic energyproduction and efficiency rate - not how many calories you burn. Also slow and fast oxidation is not (does he mean time-efficient) an accepted measure of metabolic rate on the level of the organism. There can be more or less efficient conversions and up and down-regulation of the modulators. To simplify it - maybe he has some sort of reasoning behind it that does not come out in his writing, but as it stands it is mostly impresive sounding gibberish. Not to be mean but as review of his actual claims.

Quote from AlexM on August 1, 2023, 1:32 pm

Quote from Henrik on July 24, 2023, 12:38 pm

I'm not surehowto go about this, but that ray peat post is sort of hogwash... Im not saying it to be mean its just so much conjecture there - like just the idea that b1 deficiancy would be rampant in Peaty circles - Ive seen no such indications, rather an oversupplementation of vitamin Bs (opposed to Peats suggestions). Also "Retinoic acid increases metabolism"?? On what do you base this - it's quite clear both from individuals thyroid improvement on low A diet and Grants research that it does no such thing. Also I was Peating for over 10 years with nice thyroid panels and taking vitamin B while getting my toxicity - and while it's true that it A oxidises easily and that you need B's to handle the detox - the rest of the logic is quite simplistic, and I must say I feel also thoroughly debunked in Grants books. I of course agree that you can handle more A if your machine is running well (high metabolism) -thats a generalized observation that yes we do handle more shit when having good thyroid function. Unless I see some serious research backing this up I call BS. I know its quite strong language but I feel its an important issue so Im going hard but on the ball, not the player. 🙂

@henrik It was me who wrote the RP post as I mentioned earlier in this thread. Those were all supposed to be possible factors on why could someone have Vitamin A toxicity.

The possibility of a b1 deficiency would apply to the RP’ers who developed vitamin A toxicity.

Aldehydes are toxic chemicals produced by fermentation of sugars. They are produced by yeasts and fungi, which are called fermenting organisms.
B1 binds to aldehydes. When the body is detoxifying acetaldehyde, vitamin B1 is destroyed. Carotenoids convert into retinal aldehyde. It’s very easy for one of these people to run into a b1 deficiency if they are doing a high sugar, high carotenoid diet in combination with a sedentary lifestyle . Sugar increases growth of Candida by a 20 fold. Coffee has acetalaldehyde. Yeasts and fungi produce acetaldehyde too If you are sitting around on your ass for most the day like a lot of Ray Peat folk then you’re gonna be feeding yeasts and and bad microbes with all that sugar. And your ALDH and ADH enzymes will be overburdened.

I saw gbolduev say Vitamin A increases metabolism. And I think his knowledge is far superior to Grants and Ray peats.

“Retinoic acid increases metabolism is puts pressure on glutathione. Vitamin A is not retinoic acid and converts to it on needed basis. you need to understand that to produce retinoic acid body needs b2)) and moly and 5 reactions. only then retinoic acid can increase metabolism ))”

In the HTMA world it is a known fact that Vitamin A increases the oxidation rate which is what determines the metabolic rate slow oxidiser = low metabolism , fast oxidiser = high metabolism. I think all Vit A toxic people are slow oxidisers

Then also this study says Vitamin A increases ATP in mitochondria

https://www.nutri-facts.org/en_US/news/articles/vitamin-a_s-role-in-energy-production-identified.html#

Now there is also talk by Meri Arthur that Vitamin A toxic people have a retinoic acid deficiency because they are not even getting to the later stages where retinol or retinal is converted to retinoic acid.

Overdosing on Vitamin A can cause hypothyroid too, Ray Peat mentions that as well.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23378454/#:~:text=Vitamin%20A%20has%20been%20shown,subclinical%20hypothyroidism%20is%20still%20unclear.

Well of course I cant prove that it's uncommon , but from what Ive seen of peoples bloodtests and the posting of peoples abnorm consumption of supplements I find it highly unlikely. Personally I did develop the toxicity pretty well while B1 was high all the time though of course empty carbs and vitamin A depletes it. On gbolduev I have no opinion. I just referred to Grant because of his research references and sound lines of argumentation. I dont care for trusting in people. I think its important to study the data,and I cannot see any such data that has not been very well dismantled, especially by him. I might add that what gbolduev states is largely conjecture and some of it has no real scientific meaning - like putting pressure on glutathion to increase metabolism? what does that even mean? - also is gbolduev even aware what he means by metabolism. A) Glutathion does not to my knowledge enter neither, Krebs cycle, electron transport chain or randle cycle, nor up or down regulate thyroid function. B)Is he referring to energy usage? that is not the same as metabolism which is refferring to actual metabolic energyproduction and efficiency rate - not how many calories you burn. Also slow and fast oxidation is not (does he mean time-efficient) an accepted measure of metabolic rate on the level of the organism. There can be more or less efficient conversions and up and down-regulation of the modulators. To simplify it - maybe he has some sort of reasoning behind it that does not come out in his writing, but as it stands it is mostly impresive sounding gibberish. Not to be mean but as review of his actual claims.

Ourania and Hermes have reacted to this post.

#104 · August 2, 2023, 12:28 pm

@alexm I take B1 all the time. HCL and benfo as well. Just now I am out of benfo. I want to take less and less supplements, but I will always have some B1 that's for sure.. Btw today I did 160km to pumping water power plant Dlouhé stráně like I wanted days before.. It was crayz hard, but I was in such a good mode. I was so positive and I was joking (with myself I was riding alone) all the time. Energy level also really good. I was eating and drinking a lot of carbs/sugars, but I think that taking T3 was making that difference.. Btw I agree 100% about sugars and aldehydes. I feel so bad if I eat a lot of carbs, sugars from fruit etc.. and do nothing.. I do well on sugar if I ride my bike. When I breath a lot and burn all that sugar instantly for the energy.. I need to be better with keeping sugar/carb intake lower if I am just home and sit on my ass.. Here is some photo from today. It was so hard climb. 10km average gradient 7,5%. Which was 62 minutes of crazy hard work for me. 🙂 On third photo you can see "Praděd" that is highest hill around here 1491. I was there like 20 days ago.

Uploaded files:

PJ and Alex have reacted to this post.

#105 · August 10, 2023, 8:37 am

@jiri nice bike!

#106 · August 10, 2023, 9:51 am

@orion thx today was bad day heh.. Fortunately I didn't injure anybody else. Only their car. For me I have some cuts on my hand, leg and my shoulder is painful since I used him to crash into their window.. I was going downhill and at the end was roundabout where the car was standing. I was thinking that the cars are far enough so the car waiting will move and I will go straight and pass him, but the car was waiting... So when I started braking it was too late. I was simply going to fast and too aggressive like I used to on this road so I don't have to slow down.. This was raised finger for me. Hopefully I will learn from this and act more responsibly..

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#107 · August 10, 2023, 10:02 am

@jiri ah sorry to hear this, I suspect the bike was damaged as well!

#108 · August 10, 2023, 10:41 am

@orion nothing major, but the problem is I don't have any insurance for accidents like this.. So I will have to pay for the repair.. I t looks like I will move to Netherlands for work. So I don't need that bike. So I will sell him and pay to insurance company of that guy in the car..

#109 · August 10, 2023, 10:55 am

Awe Jiri, so sorry you crashed your bike! I crashed mine last week too. I landed in a pile of beach chairs that broke my fall. I'm pretty sure my guardian angel left them there.

#110 · August 10, 2023, 12:41 pm

@lil-chick I am sorry to hear that as well. We need to be more careful. "This is not a game" like Dr.Smith likes to say. 🙂

lil chick has reacted to this post.

The relationship between Vitamin A, Copper, Ceruloplasmin and Thyroid

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