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The relationship between Vitamin A, Copper, Ceruloplasmin and Thyroid
@jessica2
Excess vitamin A inhibits thyroid function mainly through restricting transportation of thyroid hormone as both thyroid hormone and vitamin A is carried by same protein. So it makes sense peoples thyroid results improve going low VA. I think a lot of Vit A toxic people become VA toxic from being hypothyroid in the first place. Ray Peat says Carotene acts like PUFA, so thats harmful to the thyroid. Beta Carotene blocks the action of both Vitamin A and Thyroid. If you look up Beta Carotene, it's a highly unsaturated molecule with 10 double bonds. Hypothyroid people can't convert beta-carotene to Vitamin A so they turn orange or yellow.
RP has mentioned that for someone healthy with good thyroid function 10,000 IU is fine and for average hypothyroid people it is 5,000 IU. S
With copper there are so many things negatively impacting it’s bioavailability such as glyphosate, fructose, potassium and rubidium deficiency, low ceruloplasmin production, weak adrenals, too much use of copper antagonists like zinc iron and molybdenum, mag deficiency , pathogens.
Some people need copper supplementation, experienced HTMA practitioners sometimes give copper toxic people copper supplements as it is needed in some cases to get better. Fast oxidisers in HTMA tests always need copper supplements, so ARL and TEI have copper in their metabolic packs for fast oxidisers.
I need to see more evidence of having read Grant's books stored on this site in pdf that your computer can read aloud to you while you fold laundry and wash dishes. This is an odd place to ignore Grant's 8 year experiment. If your beliefs contrast with his, then he should certainly be dead long ago. Please do not quote ChatGPT to me anymore. It is as credible as Fauci. Thank you.
@alexm you are looking at this from a right angle. It's a shame that Grant didn't do any extensive blood work/hair tests during the years. Without it we have ZERO idea about his metabolism and what really is going on in his body. So we can only speculate here all the time.. I think about this topic nonstop since I have high TSH and hypothyroidsm for like 20 years at least and for sure low thyroid is the reason why I started having all the other issues. The irony here is that hypothyroid people are doing Ray Peat style of diet, but that diet is only for people with very good thyroid function otherwise they become even more hypothyroid which happened to me.. I stopped taking synthetic T4 like 3 years ago. It did nothing for me. Just lowered TSH, but because I had probably very bad conversion into T3 and fried adrenals as well(you need good cortisol production as well when you take thyroid hormones)I felt even worse and worse over time. I think that reverse T3 was just higher and higher in my liver as well.. But after another like 3-4 years of trying everything to start bile production, reverse vit A, copper toxicity nothing really works as it should. Now I am thinking that I should buy and try some T3 to see what happens with ceruloplasmin. But the problem with taking thyroid hormones you have no idea how much you should take. How much the body can handle because it is a lot of oxidative stress from that energy production.. It is very very hard to balance the body even without taking hormones. But once you start taking hormones as well it's basically not possible to balance the body because the body can't no longer regulate anything when hormones are coming in from the outside.. So it becomes real mess.. It's a shame that basically only Gbolduev/Helen was doing this the right way from biochemistry perspective without any BS and personal bias that has nothing to do with how the human body works and what is needed to regain homeostasis..
Quote from AlexM on May 4, 2023, 5:18 pm@jessica2
Excess vitamin A inhibits thyroid function mainly through restricting transportation of thyroid hormone as both thyroid hormone and vitamin A is carried by same protein. So it makes sense peoples thyroid results improve going low VA. I think a lot of Vit A toxic people become VA toxic from being hypothyroid in the first place. Ray Peat says Carotene acts like PUFA, so thats harmful to the thyroid. Beta Carotene blocks the action of both Vitamin A and Thyroid. If you look up Beta Carotene, it's a highly unsaturated molecule with 10 double bonds. Hypothyroid people can't convert beta-carotene to Vitamin A so they turn orange or yellow.
RP has mentioned that for someone healthy with good thyroid function 10,000 IU is fine and for average hypothyroid people it is 5,000 IU. S
With copper there are so many things negatively impacting it’s bioavailability such as glyphosate, fructose, potassium and rubidium deficiency, low ceruloplasmin production, weak adrenals, too much use of copper antagonists like zinc iron and molybdenum, mag deficiency , pathogens.
Some people need copper supplementation, experienced HTMA practitioners sometimes give copper toxic people copper supplements as it is needed in some cases to get better. Fast oxidisers in HTMA tests always need copper supplements, so ARL and TEI have copper in their metabolic packs for fast oxidisers.
Both carotene and preformed VA are polyunsaturated, after all beta-carotene is basically just 2 retinal chained together. Maybe the polyunsaturation is why it's so prone to oxidation.
Quote from Joe on May 4, 2023, 8:56 pmI need to see more evidence of having read Grant's books stored on this site in pdf that your computer can read aloud to you while you fold laundry and wash dishes. This is an odd place to ignore Grant's 8 year experiment. If your beliefs contrast with his, then he should certainly be dead long ago. Please do not quote ChatGPT to me anymore. It is as credible as Fauci. Thank you.
@joe have you ever considered there is something upsetting the proper metabolism of Vitamin A because it seems like you haven’t.
Also I’m not ignoring the discovery of Vitamin A causing bad symptoms and disease for people, what I’m saying is the reason this is happening is because the metabolism for Vit A is broken. Just because has Grant has done a near 0 Vit A diet for 8 years that doesn’t mean it is a toxin. The body is smart it has many back up pathways for when things go wrong or pathways going down so it can adapt to situations well. Also Grant never went 0 Vit A.
ALDH and ADH which both process Vit A both need NAD as a cofactor, they also need magnesium ions. The key feature of most diseases is that PDH is downregulated causing an imbalanced NADH/NAD ratio (excessive NADH and low NAD which is bad). So the body upregulates LDH as a backup pathway to oxidise NADH back to NAD but as a consequence lactate is also generated which is bad.
“Lactate dehydrogenase, or LDH, is a stable, soluble cytosolic enzyme that is present in most eukaryotic cells. When the plasma membrane is damaged, LDH releases into the cell culture upon necrosis (accidental cell death) or apoptosis (programmed cell death).”
I bet most or all Vitamin A toxic people will have a higher LDH level than it should be which is bad, it is commonly elevated in autoimmune diseases, hypothyroid and usually indicates necrosis/cell death. My LDH was at the higher end.
In the chronic illness model pathogens activate IFN-a and IFN-y, IFN-y cannot come on at enough strength to kill pathogens due to IFN-a inhibiting it. This leaves IFN-y chronically on rather than on for a short time. This results in chronic Complex I inhibition, which breaks the NAD redox.
If Complex I is impaired a number of other pathways ramp up to compensate :
HIF promotion -> LDH upregulation -> GDH upregulation
These compensation pathways have costs metabolic costs elsewhere: Ammonia, Lactic acid and sticky blood.
Full explanation about PDB NADH:NAD from Haidut : “If the enzyme pyruvate dehydrogenase (PDH, Pyruvate dehydrogenase - Wikipedia), which is downregulated in virtually all diseases/hypothyroidism/cancer, is not working well then the body is stuck and since it needs its NAD to continue operating at all it will have to oxidize that excess NADH back to NAD somehow. In normal metabolism the oxidants are quinones and ultimately oxygen. But in anaerobic glycolysis there is no oxygen so the body will use pyruvate as the emergency oxidizing agent. So, the enzyme LDH will oxidize NADH back to NAD using pyruvate as the oxidant and this will generate NAD and lactate. In cancer, this process occurs even when oxygen is present and it called excessive aerobic glycolysis. Giving niacinamide will raise NAD and the total NAD+NADH pool because new NAD will be generated from niacinamide. This helps as the activity of PDH depends on the NAD/NADH ratio (as well as thiamine and magnesium).”
Then we have glyphosate impairing Vitamin A metabolism, pathogens producing acetylaldehyde, mineral deficiencies, slow oxidation rate, low thyroid and many other things which disturb Vit A metabolism.
Quote from AlexM on May 4, 2023, 12:00 pmI saw this old post the other day that got me thinking about this:
Helen/Gbold: “by the way, thyroid hormones deplete vitamin A stores. within 3 weeks. since it increases the production of retinoic acid. to supply ceruloplamin
Nonsense.
Consult with a healthcare professional for personal advice and for treatment if experiencing any Vitamin A or Copper deficiency or excess.
That is laughable.
In regards to our problems with VA stemming from kind of problem with metabolizing it properly, yes, maybe. I've thought that may be the case. But then what is the solution? Just taking thyroid doesn't solve it at all, neither does the other supplement recommendation from your quote from the supplement salesman haidut (niacinamide). By the way, that guys sells high dose retinol supplements, and suggests it's good to take for all kinds of conditions, and laughs at the notion that someone could become seriously ill from it.
@salt You sound grumpy like a lot of people in here, and that fits the profile of someone with low metabolism and vitality.
The second quote you posted was from Chat GPT not me, the main reason I posted those Chat GPT answers was to show the link between Vit A, ceruloplasmin, copper and thyroid which no one seems to ever speak about in here. People here only speak about zinc for the most part.
No I’ve never implied taking Niacinamide will fix this problem, I posted that quote from Haidut as he had a good explanation about the NADH/NAD ratio going wrong in diseases.
The answer to fixing this would be to get rid of pathogens/chronic infections : mold, fungi, bacteria, viruses (latent EBV, HSV, HPV). The body downregulates energy production because ATP feeds pathogens. Same thing with b vitamins they also feed pathogens and most supplements that increase energy will feed pathogens too. Restoring and balancing minerals, getting rid of heavy metals and glyphosate, raising ceruloplasmin, fixing iron metabolism are all also needed. Detoxing the body properly and dealing with these things will be uncomfortable, it won’t be easy.
Quote from AlexM on May 7, 2023, 8:39 am@salt You sound grumpy like a lot of people in here, and that fits the profile of someone with low metabolism and vitality.
The second quote you posted was from Chat GPT not me, the main reason I posted those Chat GPT answers was to show the link between Vit A, ceruloplasmin, copper and thyroid which no one seems to ever speak about in here. People here only speak about zinc for the most part.
No I’ve never implied taking Niacinamide will fix this problem, I posted that quote from Haidut as he had a good explanation about the NADH/NAD ratio going wrong in diseases.
The answer to fixing this would be to get rid of pathogens/chronic infections : mold, fungi, bacteria, viruses (latent EBV, HSV, HPV). The body downregulates energy production because ATP feeds pathogens. Same thing with b vitamins they also feed pathogens and most supplements that increase energy will feed pathogens too. Restoring and balancing minerals, getting rid of heavy metals and glyphosate, raising ceruloplasmin, fixing iron metabolism are all also needed. Detoxing the body properly and dealing with these things will be uncomfortable, it won’t be easy.
Have you done this? Have you gone from having severe symptoms from VA to now being able to tolerate it without any problems? Or are you just repeating things that you read that sound good to you?
You might think I'm too direct, but you are posting ridiculous things like VA overload can be fixed in three weeks with a thyroid supplement. I wish it was that simple, if it actually worked then I would have been cured a long time ago.
As a sidenote my diet is very high in copper, accidentally. I'm eating a lot of potatoes. I haven't noticed anything positive or negative that I could trace back to copper but who knows.
@alexm " get rid of pathogens/chronic infections : mold, fungi, bacteria, viruses"
but how.. By balancing minerals? Fasting seems as bad idea, because it slows down metabolism and detox a lot and that will make things only worse.. I would take anything to detox all the bugs from my body no matter how bad I would feel if it helps.. Now I am just doing near infrared sauna to increase body temperature.. Here and there I have some pain in my molar tooth. Maybe there is some mild chronic infection and I should just pull that molar out.. But that would fuck up my whole biting on one side.. Is it a good idea to take iodine from lugol? The body uses it as well to fight bugs in the body right? I take like 4 mg a day.. I don't know if it hurts my thyroid or what, but I know it's good anti estrogen and keeps estrogenic cancers away..
@salt " By the way, that guys sells high dose retinol supplements, and suggests it's good to take for all kinds of conditions, and laughs at the notion that someone could become seriously ill from it. "
who Haidut? He is still on the internet? Where?
Btw what is " a lot of potatoes? When I was in Croatia my only carb source were potatoes and I was eating 3 times a day like 300-400g of boiled normal(yellow) potatoes so around 1000-1300g a day. That is around 2-2,5mg of copper which is far from "high copper intake".. Most vegans eating grains, legumes, nuts/seeds, dried fruits etc.. are eating around 10mg a day that is high intake of copper.. You can't eat that amount from just potatoes..
Quote from Jiří on May 7, 2023, 9:42 am@alexm " get rid of pathogens/chronic infections : mold, fungi, bacteria, viruses"
but how.. By balancing minerals? Fasting seems as bad idea, because it slows down metabolism and detox a lot and that will make things only worse.. I would take anything to detox all the bugs from my body no matter how bad I would feel if it helps.. Now I am just doing near infrared sauna to increase body temperature.. Here and there I have some pain in my molar tooth. Maybe there is some mild chronic infection and I should just pull that molar out.. But that would fuck up my whole biting on one side.. Is it a good idea to take iodine from lugol? The body uses it as well to fight bugs in the body right? I take like 4 mg a day.. I don't know if it hurts my thyroid or what, but I know it's good anti estrogen and keeps estrogenic cancers away..
@salt " By the way, that guys sells high dose retinol supplements, and suggests it's good to take for all kinds of conditions, and laughs at the notion that someone could become seriously ill from it. "
who Haidut? He is still on the internet? Where?
Btw what is " a lot of potatoes? When I was in Croatia my only carb source were potatoes and I was eating 3 times a day like 300-400g of boiled normal(yellow) potatoes so around 1000-1300g a day. That is around 2-2,5mg of copper which is far from "high copper intake".. Most vegans eating grains, legumes, nuts/seeds, dried fruits etc.. are eating around 10mg a day that is high intake of copper.. You can't eat that amount from just potatoes..
A kilo of potatoes isn't that much, considering its low caloric density (compared to other starchy foods). An intake of about 4-5 mg or over 500% recommended daily intake, also including fruits and other things, is a high intake. Even your intake at 2.5mg is 278% of the daily recommended intake. And lets not derail the thread into a discussion about how much carbohydrate should be eaten.