Quote from Jiří on March 5, 2021, 11:11 am

Quote from rockarolla on March 5, 2021, 10:41 am

All these vitamins are actually antibiotics. I wish the common knowledge on them to become updated as it was not shifted much for the last ~100 years 😉 If the person immunity(and health) is weak they could bring more harm than good(as ordinary antibiotics), so correcting deficiencies could be not the best practice IMO.

Evaluation of synergistic antimicrobial effect of vitamins (A, B1, B2, B6, B12, C, D, E and K) with antibiotics against resistant bacterial strains
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29408383/

"so correcting deficiencies could be not the best practice "  what?

Quote from rockarolla on March 5, 2021, 11:35 am

Body temporary drops the levels of all vitamins until the health issues are successfully resolved(could take years). Starting with vitamin D. Vit C deficiency is also common when D is low.

For example all vitamins suppress TNF-alpha - cytokine which is needed to repair damaged tissue by macrophages through temporary inflammation spikes (so called "detox" reactions).

When you drop A intake you also recover the normal functioning of macrophages, i.e. not only suppress the extra toxicity(damage) through A pathways. But A is not the only "vitamin" which inhibits macrophages - most of them do.

Quote from somuch4food on March 5, 2021, 12:23 pm

@rockarolla

Do you write about all this elsewhere? I love reading all your theories and ideas.

Or perhaps, there are other people that I could follow that share your point of view.

Quote from rockarolla on March 5, 2021, 3:36 pm

Quote from somuch4food on March 5, 2021, 12:23 pm

@rockarolla

Do you write about all this elsewhere? I love reading all your theories and ideas.

Or perhaps, there are other people that I could follow that share your point of view.

No way I can write much with my level of English - currently just trying to connect various dots learning English by reading tons of pubmed articles. 😛 Soon I'll post some anti PUFA / anti Fructose content over here.  😉

 

Quote from tim on March 6, 2021, 3:26 am

@lil-chick

Yeah it's pretty awesome working this stuff out. I think excess vit A is behind issues with vit D, vit K2 and many of the B vitamins. When I researched B12 and folate years ago I bought this supplement:

Seeking Health Active B12 Lozenge With L-5-MTHF

It contains adenosylcobalamin and methylcobalamin. It may be a good product for many of us here to take while we are depleting vit A. This brand seemed to be the brand of choice for those that are really serious about B12 and folate.

Thanks for posting the B12 video, it inspired me to do some more research in this area.

Quote from rockarolla on March 6, 2021, 5:46 am

I think excess vit A is behind issues with vit D

@tim-2, from the following study: https://ashpublications.org/blood/article/91/12/4796/260916/Retinoic-Acid-Inhibits-Monocyte-to-Macrophage

The effect of RA on MO/MAC differentiation has also been studied by others, including the differentiation of the human monoblastic cell line U937 and the differentiation of osteoclasts in chicken. Both studies found an antagonistic effect of 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D3[1,25(OH)2D3] and RA on the differentiation process, with RA being dominant over 1,25(OH)2D3.

1,25(OH)2D3, which is a potent inducer of MO differentiation, could also not overcome the differentiation block by RA in our system (data not shown).

The functional antagonism of RA and 1,25(OH)2D3 on MAC differentiation may be explained by an interaction of RA receptors (RAR and RXR) and 1,25(OH)2D3 receptors (VDR).

^^^

It could be that antagonism between A-forms and calcitriol(aka D1.25 - active form of vitamin D) pushes the "D25->D1.25" conversion (through CYP27B1 enzyme expressed in many cells, including macrophages) into constant overdrive, resulting in chronically low vit D25 levels.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352187218300093
Although the kidney was initially thought to be the sole organ responsible for the production of 1,25(OH)₂D via the enzyme CYP27b1, it is now appreciated that the expression of CYP27b1 in tissues other than the kidney is wide spread. 

Regulation of the Extrarenal CYP27B1-Hydroxylase
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4077994/

 

 

 

Quote from lil chick on March 6, 2021, 8:52 am

Thank you so much @tim-2, I searched the drug store and grocery store aisle and now understand that it is challenging to find a B12 supp that doesn't have something wrong with it, LOL.  I will check that brand out!  

So, I guess we all do think b vitamins ARE vitamins, LOL. 

@sonia My husband really likes raw salmon and eats a lot of it.  (perhaps this is his parallel universe to mine, where I'm getting a bit more raw B12 in my milk)

I sat in the parking lot of the drug store and wondered if the example of Wahl is actually the way to go:  a small serving of liver per week.  I would only do it if I could determine the age of the animal:  is it really "lamb liver" or is it from and old goat?  😉   Whal even mentions that small people (like myself) might want to go with a *child's portion*.    That would agree with the limits of my taste for liver, I only can handle a little well-salted pate spread on a cracker.    I wonder if the fiber from all those veggies she eats is helping detox her VA load.  It seems to me that fiber is one of the few things salads have going for them, LOL.

Interesting to think that perhaps the raw milk and occasional liver wasn't the worst thing I was eating as a WAPF'er.  And realizing that some high B12 foods are necessary will help WAPF'ers to accept Grants ideas more... because yes eating liver occasionally is quite traditional.   One of the things I get from WAPFers is they don't see how the low VA diet and trad diets... mesh. 

Now,  Wahl doesn't recommend liver as a daily thing, but as as weekly, small thing.   I regret the stupid fermented cod liver oil (daily!)  the most, and after that I regret all the butternut squash and other veggies I've forced myself to eat.  I had a WAPF friend who realized she was eating too much liver.  She was getting it free from the farmer who didn't want it.  I think I know a farmer who's child might be getting too much for the same reason:  because it is free.   

This also helps explain (perhaps) why some carnivores LIKE liver occasionally, perhaps they ended up carnivores because of a very tough case of B12 deficiency.  Personally, from working with my elderly cats, I don't think raw meat is enough to overcome the B12 deficiency that comes with the weakened stomach absorption of being older. 

Regarding the cholesterol myth and steak avoidance... this myth also has people avoiding liver.

Regarding the development of the face...One of the interesting things that is mentioned in the B12 video is failure to thrive in infants.  My mother was born a large, healthy infant, and I think she developed properly in utero (her teeth are straight).    However, my grandmother did not nurse.  I think that whatever replaced her breast milk (so early on for this kind of product!  was it just evaporated milk?) was low B12, because my mother had failure to thrive the whole first year.   My mother's brother also ended up with a lot of problems. 

I'm guessing that my mother ended up on the wrong foot with B12, and even though she started to thrive after age 1, she might have always been borderline low-B12/high-VA.  My brothers and I have crooked teeth and we all seem to have been fighting that same war.

Quote from Rich on March 6, 2021, 8:59 am

Yeah, I think most people eat a lot of vitamin A and don't get much in the way of D K and E. Add to that the aforementioned B deficiencies and far too much linoleic acid and you've got a serious problem on multiple fronts. 

Quote from lil chick on March 6, 2021, 9:23 am

From the google machine, surprising to me anyways:  "Some foods are better sources of B12. In a large population-based study, milk and fish were better sources of B12 than meat and eggs were. Dairy foods especially are a highly "bioavailable" source of the vitamin. Vitamin B12 in meat may be less bioavailable due to losses during cooking and the presence of collagen, which isn't digested as well with decreased gastric secretion."  

I wonder about these losses due to cooking.  Is it the heating?  Is it the loss of the juices (left stuck to the pan, or sizzled off into the BBQ pit?)