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cherries
Think again, Andrew Saul and his whole family has done carrot juicing in insane amounts for their whole life and none of them have had ANY health problems ever. There's this one guy, Garret "give me your money" Smith whose job is to spin this toxicity thing out of proportions to make huge profits. Just think about it, if your whole livelihood would depend on this toxicity thing, wouldn't you try to make everyone believe that every single carotenoid is out to get you and if you pay me and continue to pay me, I will guide you with my secret knowledge that no-one else has.
Ann Cameron Cured Her Stage 4 Cancer with Carrot Juice, Nothing Else
Why does megadosing carrot juice cure even deadly cancer?
I very much doubt that Dr Smith is making huge profits!! He’s trying to make a living I guess but then his family have to eat - & not carrots 🥕 🤣
Tim, so those studies showing people in various 3rd world countries with hypervitaminoses A, as measured through liver biopsy, showing that 2/3 of the population have their livers above the threshold, you're saying that beta carotene is not the cause ? Even though there are GMO food programs to enrich their foods with more beta carotene ? You think they reach this toxicity by eating liver, eggs and milk in poor countries where people can hardly afford meat?
Maybe u can tell us what happens to carotenoids when we ingest them ? You think they simply get excreted ? I don't think so.
They have to go through metabolic pathways and phases to be excreted and some of those rely on the carotenoids being stored in the liver and or fat for some time before this happens.
Why do you think calf livers have very little stored vitamin A yet an adult cow liver is very high ? The cow eats carotenoids all day long which are in the grasses they eat.
@ggenereux2014 what are your thoughts about this ? Should we get some consensus on this before people start eating foods with carotenoids thinking they wont get hypervitaminoses A.
I'm really torn about the carrots and juicing stories, too. All my relatives on my mom's side who juiced and ate a vegetarian diet lived in their nineties, while those who ate "normally" died younger of cancer. And we all had yellow palms and soles from all the vegetables, even those of us who only had juice a couple times a week. My problems started when I went to college and ate dormitory food. I got horrible acne and eventually took accutane. Later in life I got into cod liver oil and dairy products and have had irritating skin problems which led me to read these amazing books here about vitamin a toxicity. It's hard for me to accept the carotenoid toxicity when I saw first-hand the healings of patients on the Gerson Therapy. Which happens to include liver extract injections and liver juices for a couple years! There are people who healed cancers and autoimmunity decades ago with no recurrence. How is this possible if all the As are poisonous? And Dr. Smith says if you have ever had orange skin, you are toxic. Well that is most plant-based eaters who are a whole lot healthier than the general population.
Quote from JAJ on June 15, 2020, 11:48 am@tim-2 I don’t think I misunderstood you at all. I just didn’t agree with what you said. I perhaps didn’t explain very well as I had terrible brain fog that day & felt like my head was full of cotton wool! It doesn’t matter though as it all amounts to the same thing - we all agree that no one wants to overdo carotenoids
Hope your brain fog is better.
I'm not concerned with who agrees or disagrees here, I'm concerned with discussion of the facts. I presented clear reasons to back up my points. I haven't seen any valid rebuttal, I also haven't seen anyone present evidence showing that carotenoids cause Hypervitaminosis A. It is well established in the science that carotenoids don't cause Hypervitaminosis A so it would require very strong evidence to show otherwise.
If I disagree with a point someone makes then I explain why I think it is wrong, an example quoting a statement you made:
The body has no way to get rid of excess carotenoids other than put them through the vA metabolism pathway which adds to the body burden.
This contradicts what is known. There are over 600 carotenoids in nature and most of those are not provitamin A carotenoids... carotenoids like most other plant based substances can be excreted, we aren't just doomed to accumulate carotenoids that can't convert into Vit A. Additionally, although β-carotene 15-15’-monooxygenase is not just present in the intestine but also the liver it is regulated by ISX. One cup of carrot juice contains 45,000 IU or 2200 mcg RAE (One cup of carrot juice per day is equivalent to a 67g serving of beef liver every three days or 1 dessertspoon of CLO every day). When lifetime carrot juice drinkers get longterm carotenemia why aren't they all getting symptoms of Hypervitaminosis A? Because retinol conversion is regulated.
I think the distinction between VA, provitamin A carotenoids and non VA carotenoids is key, for example zucchini has over 2000 mcg of lutein per 100 grams which is high, perhaps it should be consumed frugally because of that, but lutein has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with Vitamin A and it just discredits any low VA diet recommendations to say that it is important to avoid foods that contain high levels of non VA carotenoids. Like you, I currently believe that it is best to have a low carotenoid and low retinol diet (perhaps acronyms are in order? LCLR?) but if someone wants to deplete their retinol reserves or heal after taking Accutane it is unethical to throw everything under the same umbrella, it is unnecessarily restrictive to say that one should avoid xanthophylls so pineapple, zucchini and avocado should be avoided to heal from Hypervitaminosis A or Accutane. That's just garbage, there is no evidence that xanthophylls and small amounts of provitamin A carotenoids will hamper healing from these issues. Ill people need less stress in their life and plenty of nutritional support. Following an unnecessarily restrictive diet is antagonistic to both. Avoiding fish or chicken or pineapple or herbs or spices or low fat dairy or pork or ... because of Vitamin A concerns makes no sense. It is orthorexic cult like stuff. It is counter productive and unethical to promote.
If someone wants to heal from Hypervitaminosis A then it is very simple what they should definitely avoid: Retinol and beta carotene supplements, cod liver oil, fortified foods, liver, all high fat dairy and very high beta carotene foods like carrots, sweet potato, pumpkin, spinach and kale. Is that hard to follow? No way, it's easy. Probably the most challenging thing to avoid is butter and cheese.
It has been discussed here how people often give up on low VA. If a diet is very restrictive and complex and it has to be followed for a long period of time what should we expect? VA depletion will always take a long time if someone has Hypervitaminosis A so the only aspect to work on is the ease and simplicity of the diet. When things are simplified as much as possible and the recommendations are scientifically sound then low VA is more likely to help more people.
Quote from jobo on June 15, 2020, 4:46 pmTim, so those studies showing people in various 3rd world countries with hypervitaminoses A, as measured through liver biopsy, showing that 2/3 of the population have their livers above the threshold, you're saying that beta carotene is not the cause ? Even though there are GMO food programs to enrich their foods with more beta carotene ? You think they reach this toxicity by eating liver, eggs and milk in poor countries where people can hardly afford meat?
Maybe u can tell us what happens to carotenoids when we ingest them ? You think they simply get excreted ? I don't think so.
They have to go through metabolic pathways and phases to be excreted and some of those rely on the carotenoids being stored in the liver and or fat for some time before this happens.
Why do you think calf livers have very little stored vitamin A yet an adult cow liver is very high ? The cow eats carotenoids all day long which are in the grasses they eat.
@ggenereux2014 what are your thoughts about this ? Should we get some consensus on this before people start eating foods with carotenoids thinking they wont get hypervitaminoses A.
Good questions.
The reason those studies were done in Africa was because the population was subject to ongoing VA supplementation programs. High dose retinol supplements and retinol fortification of common foods. This is the reason for the Hypervitaminosis, not the mangos. They could see that some of the population had plenty of beta carotene in their diet so they wanted to check, they could see the potential harm in widespread VA supplementation if some of the population were already replete. That is my understanding. If you find anything in those studies to contradict this then please let us know.
People in poor countries that eat a lot of liver but less meat could definitely get Hypervitaminosis A. Camel herders that drink a lot of high fat milk but don't eat much meat could be at risk too perhaps? I doubt eating normal amounts of milk and eggs will give one Hypervitaminosis A even if they aren't eating that much meat. Butter and cheese can be problematic but I think it's normally liver or VA supplements that is what makes people sick.
With regard to carotenoid excretion check out this thread:
https://ggenereux.blog/discussion/topic/gari-bigpoppa/?part=5
Yep carotenoids are probably best minimized so the body has less to deal with in the first place.
Calf liver is very high in retinol, not sure where you got that from... Think about how many carotenoids a cow eats all day, they would be poisoned quickly if just a small portion converted into retinol. They never get Hypervitaminosis A, the conversion is regulated.
I can see carotenoids and their breakdown products having chemotherapeutic effects. They are cytotoxic. Carrot juice may be a natural form of chemotherapy.
A lot of herbal toxins benefit us because they harm pathogens that harm us. Perhaps carotenoids help prevent cancer but have toxic effects as well like all other plant toxins. I'm pretty skeptical of research finding benefits from plant toxins like isothiocyanates but I'm also skeptical of the carnivore crowd claiming all plant toxins should be avoided if possible.
The problem though with the idea that carotenoids help prevent cancer is the most important one beta-carotene doesn't. It causes cancer. The largest trials have clearly demonstrated this. So if high fruit and vegetable consumption in your family was associated with reduced mortality and cancer then carotenemia wasn't a causal association, it could only have been a correlation. The high fruit and vegetable consumption could have been directly associated with longer life but it could only have been because of other nutrients in the produce. What is promising though it that the benefits of the produce were likely more important than the negative effects of the carotenoids. I'm making the assumption of grouping all carotenoids together here, that may be unsound as different carotenoids may have different effects and toxicity.
Once someone has cancer the situation is different. Beta-carotene could actually help fight it due to its cytotoxic properties.
Retinoic acid is used for cancer treatment so the Gerson therapy seems to be operating on similar principles using liver juice.
some random thoughts:
Regarding high carotenes, Butternut squash gives me symptoms. (I had started to realize this even before I heard of Grant). I wonder if I'm a good converter or a bad converter? I have no idea. I think other people here have realized they react to carotene foods.
Pumpkin flesh and seeds are known to be anti worm. (perhaps this relates to the toxicness of it). And, @tim-2, I also had that same idea that perhaps carrot juice is chemo, LOL.
I wonder, aren't these pigments all fat soluble and a pain in the butt to get rid of?
It appears to me that in general pigments are problematic. On another thread we were talking about how animals with white fur have purple pigments coming out in their tears and staining the fur. It would seem to me that what we do when we get carotene is break it down somewhat and then store it. When we get animal A, we are inheriting what someone else broken down and stored pigments. I would guess that would make animal A SLIGHTLY easier to deal with, not harder? Just a thought.
Perhaps there is a hierarchy of pigments where orange is the worst and maybe blue isn't quite so bad etc.