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Keero log
There's a number of fascinating things about this NCI page, not least of which is the observation that Vitamin C has been shown to counter a chemotherapy drug. It's curious, if not amusing, that the National Cancer Institute finds it useful or necessary or whatever, to editorially "fire-wall" itself from this PDQ entity. See the section at the bottom - About This PDQ Summary.
It's obvious in 5-minutes of reading that the case is not closed on high-dose Vitamin C, not by a long shot. And not to mention that this is simply a small sample of what's been "leaking-out" from Cancer dot Gov. Maybe they have some kind of Institutional Eczema at this point and are sloughing-off the truth, a bizarro-world symptom?
https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/treatment/cam/hp/vitamin-c-pdq
Like anything we're researching regarding the retinoids, investigation of Vitamin C is a real mixed-bag. PubMed yields over 94,000 papers on a "Vitamin C" query. I like clinical results. That's what really caught my attention here; Grant's amazing success. And that's what I like about listening to people with real life experience outside the conventional realm. They don't have to be perfect, they just have to be honest. It's always seemed odd to me that the same kinds of authority figures who have given us bad dietary advice, lousy drugs, laughable research, deadly vaccines, bankrupting treatments, and endless arrogance - are the same ones that set our RDA's.
One thing that really ticks me off now that I know about Retinoic Acid is that on the flip-side of the awareness/RDA coin, it appears that authorities have obfuscated the amount of Retinol that is dangerous, having substituted concocted the International Units designation, instead of using the simpler 'milligram' one. Consumers would much more easily grok the fact that if 12 milligrams-a-day causes hepato-toxicity, (assuming anyone is really trying to make them aware of that dose/disease relationship) then retinol must be very dangerous at very small doses. That's really useful information, much less the truth that zero-milligrams is an optimal goal. I would have never fooled around with cod liver oil twenty years ago if I had been adequately warned. Same goes for most dairy products. I think responsible authorities would be plastering all 'Vitamin A' supplements and fish oils with strident and clearly visible warning labels, if not making them prescription-only items.
Bloggers digging into the Retinoid Research Maze are kind of like the woman in this following vaccine interview - i.e., archiving, sifting, remembering, underlining, watching, thinking, reporting. We'll be passing along the truth about the Retinoid family of toxins for a long time as a result of our collective work. Hopefully, we'll be discovering better ways to detox from them as well. Cheers.
Small note here: I am definitely feeling much more aching joints this past week. My back has been noticeably aching more, considering a few weeks ago (before vit C) I was doing very physical labour everyday for 5 hours a day and not having any problems.
Hi Keero, I'm experiencing a troubling past symptom in the last couple of days after upping my intake of Vitamin C. When Tim mentioned the research that went into the determination of the RDA, after knee-jerking, I started looking around for more information. I found this 2016 review that gives me some concern, so I'm ending supplementation for awhile to see what happens. Seems like higher-doses stirred something up. I found the whole paper quite interesting, as it covered the pro's and con's in great detail. The latter section on the potential advantages of humans having lost the ability to synthesize Vitamin C is worth considing. All in all, it made me slow-down and appreciate Tim's perspective. I might not have found the paper if he hadn't planted a seed. Hope your symptoms clear in short order.
Quote from John Fry on August 26, 2019, 6:01 pmHi Keero, I'm experiencing a troubling past symptom in the last couple of days after upping my intake of Vitamin C. When Tim mentioned the research that went into the determination of the RDA, after knee-jerking, I started looking around for more information. I found this 2016 review that gives me some concern, so I'm ending supplementation for awhile to see what happens. Seems like higher-doses stirred something up. I found the whole paper quite interesting, as it covered the pro's and con's in great detail. The latter section on the potential advantages of humans having lost the ability to synthesize Vitamin C is worth considing. All in all, it made me slow-down and appreciate Tim's perspective. I might not have found the paper if he hadn't planted a seed. Hope your symptoms clear in short order.
What issues did high dose VC bring back? I have been keeping my ascorbate and ascorbic intake relatively low for months now, and will keep it this way. Thanks for the study link.
Glad my comments were helpful John.
I'm really interested in hydroxyproline and hydroxylysine which are both found in stocks and jellys. I'm also really shocked that nobody talks about these amino acids. Linus Pauling's hypothesis of heart disease being a form of low level scurvy is plausible but we need to remember that his protocol wasn't just Vitamin C, it was also amino acids like proline and lysine. The thing is though is that hydroxyproline and hydroxylysine bypass the bodies need for Vitamin C for collagen production so we could view lack of regular gelatin in the diet along with lack of adequate Vitamin C as a possible cause of heart disease. Assuming that it is true that heart disease rates have increased in modern times this is much more plausible from a historical perspective. Vitamin C intakes have been generally low in most parts of the world throughout history. What has changed though is that people consume much less gelatinous foods in modern times.
Hi Tim,
The hydroxylation of both proline and lysine are considered post-translational modifications, meaning they occur after the collagen chain is synthesized. So the protein is first synthesized and contains proline and lysine along with all the other amino acids making up the collagen chain, then hydroxylase enzymes (prolyl 4-hydroxylase and lysyl hydroxylase) add a hydroxyl group to certain proline and lysine residues along the chain. The hydroxyproline and hydroxylysine we get from food is not used directly to make collagen. But when we eat collagen we also get lots of unmodified proline and lysine which are very useful, and of course glycine.
I'm a protein biochemist and have studied collagen and other connective tissue proteins in cartilage, bone, tendon and skin for many years. My lab group studies collagen modifications such as hydroxylation, glycosylation and cross-linking.
Quote from MaryAnn on August 27, 2019, 9:08 amHi Tim,
The hydroxylation of both proline and lysine are considered post-translational modifications, meaning they occur after the collagen chain is synthesized. So the protein is first synthesized and contains proline and lysine along with all the other amino acids making up the collagen chain, then hydroxylase enzymes (prolyl 4-hydroxylase and lysyl hydroxylase) add a hydroxyl group to certain proline and lysine residues along the chain. The hydroxyproline and hydroxylysine we get from food is not used directly to make collagen. But when we eat collagen we also get lots of unmodified proline and lysine which are very useful, and of course glycine.
I'm a protein biochemist and have studied collagen and other connective tissue proteins in cartilage, bone, tendon and skin for many years. My lab group studies collagen modifications such as hydroxylation, glycosylation and cross-linking.
Thanks Mary,
Yes when proline is used for the production of collagen then it is hydroxylated after the collagen is synthesized. However that doesn't mean that hydroxyproline cannot be incorporated directly into collagen. Meat seems to help decrease the susceptibility to scurvy even though it contains insignificant amounts of Vitamin C, hydroxyproline may explain why.
Perhaps I am wrong but I haven't seen any proof that hydroxyproline cannot be directly incorporated into collagen. If you have that then I would be very thankful to see it.
This is an old study but they demonstrated that hydroxyproline can be directly incorporated into collagen when injected into chick embryos. We also need to remember that since chickens and rats and other experimental animals synthesize Vitamin C it is likely that human biology has developed more efficient ways of making direct use of hydroxyproline.
Incorporation of Hydroxyproline into Tissue
Proteins by Chick Embryos
Hi Tim,
Here is a web site explaining how DNA is translated into protein:
https://www.nature.com/scitable/topicpage/translation-dna-to-mrna-to-protein-393/
Figure 2 shows the mRNA codons, each with 3 nucleotides, that code for the different amino acids in protein. There are no codons for the modified amino acids hydroxyproline and hydroxylysine because the hydroxyl group (OH) is added after translation. The paper that you mentioned is from the 1950's and uses techniques that leave a large margin of error. In fact that work was done before DNA to protein translation was even discovered.
Hi Empirebuilder,
I'm a 100% believer in Grant's theory! The science definitely supports the theory that vitamin A is in fact not a vitamin, but really just a plant toxin. There is a lot of bad science in the literature and it usually goes uncorrected. There is also a lot of science that is funded by companies with a vested interest in the outcome - also bad science.
I have been on a zero A diet since April 2018, 1.5 years, and I'm doing very well. All the mental and physical symptoms that I didn't even realize I had (brain fog, low energy, poor sleep, no dreams, weak bones, etc) disappeared within a month or 2. I thought it was just aging and unavoidable. The symptom that I researched and which lead me to grant's web site was a severe non-itchy face rash. I had just started eating lots of liver so that was the clue that made me think hypervitaminosis A. I still have a few scabby spots on my face, but it has improved 98% from the bumpy red lobster days. I still maintain zero vit A and take activated charcoal every morning before breakfast. I think the path to total recovery may take several years.