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New protocol to fix iron/copper toxicity
Here is where he talks about blood donations, I guess my recollection was right.
Quote from whatisaging on May 5, 2025, 3:11 pmHere is where he talks about blood donations, I guess my recollection was right.
So im guessing you Dont do blood donations? Think its a bad idea?
@to bad idea donating blood would be only for people who already have low red blood cell count. Lets say you are young female who is vegetarian. For person like that donating blood can be mainly negative, but for males who eat a lot of heme iron? Donating blood or simply losing blood lets say 1L per year will be always a good think in long term..
@whatisaging also what about IP6? It has no negative effect on the liver as EGCG can have, has no caffeine and chelates iron, copper maybe even better. You hear all the time people taking IP6 for lowering ferritin with good results. Not so much with EGCG..
But still donating blood is for sure the best longevity hack there is. Especially when it comes to controlling iron. Basically you go 1-3 times a year and you don't have to worry about iron overload. They also check your feritin before donating blood. So you don't even have to go pay for your own blood work.. You just make sure that it is under 50 which seems to be ideal for overal health and longevity and you don't have to worry about ony of that BS of blocking iron absorption with coffee, tea, calcium during meals etc.. Never understood Ray Peat why he was talking about all that instead of saying "just be helpful to others and go donate blood" lol..
Btw little talk with chatGPT about what is happening after EGCG binds to iron
"The iron may be either retained (stored or reused) or excreted in bile under certain conditions, although iron excretion in humans is generally minimal."
"The body does not actively excrete much iron, so chelators like EGCG mostly prevent uptake or reduce its reactive role, rather than causing significant elimination. For actual iron removal (e.g., in hemochromatosis), more potent chelators like deferoxamine are needed."
"EGCG does not significantly increase iron elimination from the body, but rather limits its reactivity and uptake."
So again like I said. Nothing will remove iron from the body more effectively than blood loss..
Quote from Jiří on May 6, 2025, 2:45 am
@whatisaging also what about IP6? It has no negative effect on the liver as EGCG can have, has no caffeine and chelates iron, copper maybe even better. You hear all the time people taking IP6 for lowering ferritin with good results. Not so much with EGCG..
But still donating blood is for sure the best longevity hack there is. Especially when it comes to controlling iron. Basically you go 1-3 times a year and you don't have to worry about iron overload. They also check your feritin before donating blood. So you don't even have to go pay for your own blood work.. You just make sure that it is under 50 which seems to be ideal for overal health and longevity and you don't have to worry about ony of that BS of blocking iron absorption with coffee, tea, calcium during meals etc.. Never understood Ray Peat why he was talking about all that instead of saying "just be helpful to others and go donate blood" lol..
Btw little talk with chatGPT about what is happening after EGCG binds to iron
"The iron may be either retained (stored or reused) or excreted in bile under certain conditions, although iron excretion in humans is generally minimal."
"The body does not actively excrete much iron, so chelators like EGCG mostly prevent uptake or reduce its reactive role, rather than causing significant elimination. For actual iron removal (e.g., in hemochromatosis), more potent chelators like deferoxamine are needed."
"EGCG does not significantly increase iron elimination from the body, but rather limits its reactivity and uptake."
So again like I said. Nothing will remove iron from the body more effectively than blood loss..
Heisenberg on IP6:
Personally, my dark circles under my eyes have gone down. Blood donation a few years ago didn't do this for me. I got my ferritin down to 20 at one point. There were no improvements beyond not getting sick for a couple years.
The ChatGPT analysis in that quote is a bit strange: Iron is not excreted, therefore EGCG does not excrete it? Surely it's possible that EGCG could excrete, along with whatever iron is attached to it?
EGCG is known to improve neurodegenerative conditions in vivo, so I think it at least brings iron into the liver with it.
Whether that iron-EGCG is excreted is less clear. In this paper
Figure 6 shows reduction of iron content in the liver.
But in another paper
Figure 3e shows increased liver iron. Paradoxically though, there is a healthy histology, so the iron might be bound to EGCG and inert.
Why are they different? One reason might be timespans. The first was 2 months of EGCG, while the second was 3 weeks.
So maybe EGCG gathers up the stored iron from the tissues and drags it into the liver. Then over long enough time, the liver can eliminate this iron-EGCG complex via the bile.
@whatisaging Hi bro I did some new blood work. What you think of this? Should I go back on T4 meds? It suck that I can't test for rverse T3 here.. Other markers are better than before. I think because I went on basically very low saturated fat diet. So my lipids are not so crazy, but that Lp(a) is real issue. What you think do I have all these low bioavailable copper issues from low thyroid? But the thing is people have similar free T3 levels like I have, but their TSH is under 2 for example(like for excample Paul Saladino in his video..). Mine is over 7 have no idea why.. This fucking copper think.. Maybe I should go on T4 and see if ceruloplasmin with the copper will go up again? I am just scared that I will convert all that T4 I would take into reverse T3 which I can't test for and that will just shut down my metabolism and fuck up my liver even more.. Ferritin also not ideal. I am not touching any red meat for sure.. Or maybe I am vitamin A deficient(I can't test for that as well) hehe? I am like 7 years now on low vit A. Basically zero retinol. Only some beta carotene from stuff like green peas and green beans.. But when I overdid vit A from all sources I was in worse stat than now so I don't know heh.. Copper I have from oats and sorghum and rice and vggies like 2mg a day. zinc I take only 10mg a day now.. I don't think I have deficiency of copper. Especially when I consider my bile flow is bad.. Liver enzymes still elevated but not so much. I think low saturated fat, no red meat is helping. And also taking some sunflower lecithin..
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I'll share some of my observations on copper, and how that could be related to thyroid.
1. COPPER
Low copper can actually mean copper toxicity. In Wilson's disease, (at least, before the liver gets really bad), that's actually what you see: low copper and ceruloplasmin, because the body can't mobilize copper for a genetic reason. So instead copper gets stored and builds up to toxic levels.
There's also a vegetarian study where it found that vegetarians had somewhat lower blood copper levels despite higher absorption and higher amounts in diet. The reason this might happen is copper itself downregulates the gene defective in Wilson's, in vitro at least. So if some people increase copper, they might store more.
For me, it was pretty clear this is my issue, since my hair test is ridiculously high in copper, off the charts.
There is also Malter's symptom checklist, and I have 25 out of 31 of the symptoms.
This phenomenon is also something talked about by mineral balancing people from the Lawrence Wilson camp. They believe copper affects trace mineral status, so based on many hair tests, they isolated ranges of the trace minerals which correspond to copper toxicity.
Here are my three hair tests applied to these indicators: you notice everything looks terrible but gets better with time as I focused on copper.
2. THYROID
Notice also the second rows labeled "Thyroid". The mineral balancing people developed ranges of trace minerals to measure thyroid status. In my case, you see the markers look awful. The explanation being that my copper toxicity is negatively impacting my thyroid.
As my copper hair marker improve, I show improved thyroid hair markers.
3. OTHER ASPECTS
There are more Wilson indicators from hair testing, which I will share below.
@whatisaging thx for the answer. I know that I have toxicity probably. I did two hair tests years back as well. Typical signs of copper disregulation. I just don't know what came first hypothyroidsm that resulted in copper toxicity/dysregulation or I was copper toxic from my mom and that gave me hypothyroidsm.. I really don't know. But I know that I did really stupid stuff that increased stress so adrenal burnout and that was not helping with any of this for sure.. Anyway I called my endo after 2 years of not taking anything and so I went there and she gave me 50mcg of T4.. She suggested some new product here in Czech Republic Syntroxine and I am pissed because I looked it up now and it has titanium dioxide which is substance here in EU banned from putting it into food, but they can put it into meds LOL.. + not even insurance covered the cost so I am pissed now lol.. I have 90 pills. Will take it, but another round I want normal euthyrox again.. I will do cerulopalsmin and copper again with another thyroid labs after 2 months of taking it. Hopefully the copper will go up.. I know it is not deficiency, but low bioavalability. I just don't know how much it is due to low thyroid or low adrenals. Maybe both.. Btw now when I think about it. People often report having issues when taking thyroid hormones. Now I think it could be due to "copper dumping" as well not just hyperthyroidsm.. When I had sky high free copper I had basically all the symptoms of hyperthyroid as well..
Btw I just find out that taking biotin in high doses can mess up thyroid blood tests lol.. I will drop biotin B complex 7 days before next test..
ALso on hair test you can see results from the first test as well. The first one was while I was on T4 and you can see how much worse it got when I dropped T4 meds lol.. I probably shouldn't drop it. But I was listening Gbolduev and his "you can't take any hormones if you want your body to balance itself.." Well like 5 years later and I got just worse.. But the thing is I was also vit A toxic like crazy. So now at least I assume that after 7 years of no vit A my levels are not in that crazy toxic range.. Basically I learned that having high vit A and copper intake is the worst thing I can do(thx Ray Peat diet and Morley Robbins protocol) so now hopefully the T4 meds will work better when I am no longer trying to poison myself with copper nad vit A. Hopefully I will slowly detox any excess copper and vit A, iron will go down to healthy range as I will lower my heme iron intake and at the same time not taxing my adrenals with any stupid stuff and everything will slowly improves heh..
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Yes, your hair test shows most of those indicators of copper toxicity. As bad as mine, but with low hair copper instead of high hair copper. The thyroid and other markers are quite bad as well.
Molybdenum might help modulate the copper dumping, if that happens. Even outside HG7, I've found it helps me sleep, for example, so pretty effective for managing copper.
@whatisaging yeah I have molybdenum on hand. I am just scared to take it when my serum copper is already so low. No wonder I felt like I will die in any moment when I was taking 30mg of zinc daily and 400mcg of molybdenum every other day.. My copper had to be zero in the blood lol..
Btw about vit C. It is very interesting that if you look how much they give to people with severe scurvy it is like 500mg a day and they recover very fast.. I wonder why Linus Pauling was taking/recommending so much.. I was thinking if my plaque and high Apo(a) are from low vit C, but I was always taking vit C. I think in my case it is really issue of low bioavalable copper = no elastin synthesis = weak collagen + low thyroid function.. Anyway I can't do anything drastic at this point. I could probably lose some iron with bleeding that's for sure. It is crazy looking back on all my blood tests. I always had higher feritin and very low TIBC saturation. Sometimes below ref. range and stupid me on bodybuilding diet always eating insane amounts of meat. But everything started to go from not ideal to really bad once I started eating stuff like liver that's for sure. That worsened iron toxicity + I started developing copper toxicity with vit A toxicity.. After that I started detoxing vit A on low vit A diet, but I I increased red meat a lot a s well. So again more iron loading.. Btw interesting observation when I was in Croatia during the summer I was eating like 1kg of meat a day at least for like 70 days. I couldn't tan at all. I came back(earlier in august due to catching covid) and people were like what? You were almost 3 months in Croatia? Where you were hiding in a basement? In fact I was daily on the beach, swimming etc.. So I had no tan, but I developed a lot of age spots. Great example of low melanin from low bioavailable copper and high oxidative stress from excess heme iron from diet.. Anyways Now just 3 weeks on no red meat. Just some white poultry and my liver enzymes and lipids are much better.. It is crazy I knew iron was a problem for me, but I still ate red meat all the time. That lowers bioavailable copper as well and that caused my copper deficiency symptoms. So Morley Robins is right in this. But even him he knows that iron is a problem, but still recommends liver and low carb = meat heavy diet. I mean how stupid is that.. So now I am not touching anything with heme iron that's for sure.. Basically my goal is the same as GH7 protocol. I will just try bleeding for detoxing iron. I feel like taking EGCG is too risky for me. With my low bile flow. I think it would put insane pressure on my kidneys. Which is the last thing I want to do now.. With bleeding it is simple mechanism. You pull out red blood cells that have iron in it. There is no mechanism from this process that could be damaging liver, kidneys or anything in the body, but with EGCG we have no idea why and how it can cause liver failure in some people.. There is so many compounds in green tea extract and we have no idea how it wors and what it really does in the body. That's why I don't like complex plant compounds like that, but only single essential micronutrients like vitamin, minerals, amino acids etc.. Where we know pretty well what is doing in the body..